Author Topic: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?  (Read 15784 times)

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #105 on: March 05, 2021, 01:13:47 pm »
I know very well who Jordan Peterson is and I also know that he's someone who steps far outside his area of expertise on a regular basis.

In terms of his political opinions, many times yes, but that's fine everyone can have a political opinion and we're free to disagree with them.  As I said, I get why people don't like his politics, they're free to discredit those opinions.

I'm trying to discuss his psychology, which has been helpful to millions and has nothing to do with criticizing identity politics.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #106 on: March 05, 2021, 01:17:54 pm »
His self-help book isn't academic work. That's been my point here.

It's based on his practice as a PhD.  He's not trying to submit it to an academic journal where cites are needed after every sentence.  It's a book, not an academic article he's submitting to a journal and never claimed it as such.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #107 on: March 05, 2021, 01:18:43 pm »

But I think his point is also that it's hard to preach about how the world should be run when you're a 20 y/o student who still lives with your parents and haven't accomplished anything.  I mean when I was 20 I had all the answers but I really didn't know much about the world other than what I read in a book, so my grand ideas for saving the world at the time were pretty naive.

But as you say, people should still have a voice and be free to speak out.

People get self-help from all kinds of sources, even THE BIBLE FFS.  So unless the book is written to expressly do harm, or misrepresent I'm ok with people getting what they can from it.

That said, he's an example of why fame is a problem, he's a lousy academic, he's a hypocrite, and he talks like Kermit.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #108 on: March 05, 2021, 01:20:16 pm »
In terms of his political opinions, many times yes, but that's fine everyone can have a political opinion and we're free to disagree with them.  As I said, I get why people don't like his politics, they're free to discredit those opinions.

I'm trying to discuss his psychology, which has been helpful to millions and has nothing to do with criticizing identity politics.
Here's someone I greatly respect in the space of cognitive science and philosophy. Read his take on Peterson's bestseller:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/hot-thought/201802/jordan-peterson-s-flimsy-philosophy-life

It articulates far better than I ever could why Peterson's book is ham-fisted and not at all academically rigorous.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #109 on: March 05, 2021, 01:27:11 pm »
People get self-help from all kinds of sources, even THE BIBLE FFS.  So unless the book is written to expressly do harm, or misrepresent I'm ok with people getting what they can from it.

Quote
That said, he's an example of why fame is a problem, he's a lousy academic, he's a hypocrite, and he talks like Kermit.

I think the problem is many times he's not speaking as an academic, so what are you judging him on?  He has no expertise in Marxism.  But it's possible to separate the academic from the political commentator, which is my whole point.  I mean he has tons of lectures on youtube in classes on his field of expertise, so you have issues with these, or just him mouthing off about identity politics in some interview?

I'm trying to separate the psychologist from the political pundit, which is hard because he's both.  Jonathan Haidt isn't as political, he speaks on the differences between because ie: conservatives and liberals psychologically, because that's literally an area he studies as an academic.  Jordan has no expertise on transgender human rights laws.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #110 on: March 05, 2021, 01:32:44 pm »
Here's someone I greatly respect in the space of cognitive science and philosophy. Read his take on Peterson's bestseller:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/hot-thought/201802/jordan-peterson-s-flimsy-philosophy-life

It articulates far better than I ever could why Peterson's book is ham-fisted and not at all academically rigorous.

You just resent Peterson because his politics are antithesis to yours. There's nothing he could say in any book that wouldn't make you want to discredit him, because you vehemently dislike him.  Typical culture war stuff.  I mean I get that, but to deny how helpful his book has been to people because well I dislike the man, is sociopathic.  Hiding your agenda behind "well he's missing some footnotes here and there" is BS.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline cybercoma

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #111 on: March 05, 2021, 01:41:32 pm »
You just resent Peterson because his politics are antithesis to yours. There's nothing he could say in any book that wouldn't make you want to discredit him, because you vehemently dislike him.  Typical culture war stuff.  I mean I get that, but to deny how helpful his book has been to people because well I dislike the man, is sociopathic.  Hiding your agenda behind "well he's missing some footnotes here and there" is BS.
That's what you got from that review?

You didn't even read it.

So really, don't come at me about not having an open mind.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #112 on: March 05, 2021, 01:46:35 pm »
Also, I think another thing to be aware of is the concerted effort by conservatives to artificially inflate their book sales through bulk buying schemes that push them up the NYT bestsellers list. More information on that here:

https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/474662-the-myth-of-the-conservative-bestseller

"Bulk buys ensure success regardless of whether anyone is remotely interested in the book. They allow those with the necessary resources to conjure up an illusion of grassroots popularity."


Offline Black Dog

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #113 on: March 05, 2021, 01:47:38 pm »
I disagree with that. Postmodernism is the underpinning of modern critical theory (modern identity politics, intersectionalism) etc.

But I'm not trying to discuss his politics, which are obviously divisive.  My point is on his self-help and psychological work, which is what he's actually trained in as an academic.

Yes and he doesn't understand any of it.

Quote
You just resent Peterson because his politics are antithesis to yours. There's nothing he could say in any book that wouldn't make you want to discredit him, because you vehemently dislike him.  Typical culture war stuff. I mean I get that, but to deny how helpful his book has been to people because well I dislike the man, is sociopathic. Hiding your agenda behind "well he's missing some footnotes here and there" is BS.

Has anyone denied that or is it simply a banal observation that doesn't need to be addressed? After all lots of people have found happiness and fulfillment in reading The Secret or joining cults, but that's not the only criteria we use for assessing something.

at the end of the day people hate Peterson because his "advice" is little more than platitudes and his public persona is that of a grifting weirdo who regularly steps out of his narrow field of expertise into places he has no business opining on. Oh and many of his fans are freaks too.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #114 on: March 05, 2021, 01:59:48 pm »
i love how the "women are chaos" guy got absolutely scammed by his own daughter and almost died because she's an even bigger nutjob than he is.

Peterson has claimed you need a supernatural, mystical experiences to quit smoking!   His views on Christianity are simply bizarre...  From what I can tell, he doesn’t believe in actual god, but thinks people should live like they believe in a Christian god. 

The man is a crackpot.  I find his non-political ideas WAY worse than his political views on free speech. 

Based on interviews and debates I have heard him in, I wouldn’t believe a single word the man says about how one should live their life.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 02:01:44 pm by the_squid »
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #115 on: March 05, 2021, 02:21:57 pm »
Yes and he doesn't understand any of it.

Really?  Which part?  Be specific.

Current critical theory and intersectional identity politics in the universities comes out the french postmodernism movement in the 1960's, which is all he really says.  Most people in university in the humanities will be introduced to postmodern theory (Foucault, Derrida etc).  That's really most of what he says about postmodernism.  I happen to like postmodernism and critical theory, it's pretty brilliant, but it's also been politicized, which causes social conflict.

As for "cultural Marxist", it's an odd term i don't use, but he means that Marxism is about using equality of outcome to destroy oppressive power structures in economics.  Culturally, this is being done by postmodernists (today's "woke") who are in favour of equality of outcome instead of merit with race/gender quotas etc so that everyone needs to be the same regardless of merit, and any discrepancies in a the workplace or student admissions etc in group identity numbers is seen as being due to oppression.  I mean that's 2021 to a tee.

Some may agree (include many posters on this forum) with that critical theory/postmodern approach, and it does have some merit because racism/sexism oppression clearly occurs.  You guys just don't agree with politics, because he's anti-postmodernism and you guys are clearly postmodernists so you seek to discredit him.  Yay culture war.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #116 on: March 05, 2021, 02:27:42 pm »
I can tell you right now that most of the rightwing folks on MLW are anti-postmodernists.  Resisting the reform of oppressive power structures is in the interests of old white men like those guys.  Consequently, folks on the left, which are a bunch of the people on this forum like black dog and cyberc, are postmodernists, and fight for more equal outcomes among identity groups through whichever means.  And there's nothing wrong with that in general.  But this is what the culture war is all about.
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #117 on: March 05, 2021, 02:40:10 pm »
I'm not looking for equal outcomes. I'm looking to eliminate barriers altogether, which isn't immediately possible in most cases. That means I'm looking for equitability not equality in the interim. In any case, I think this completely misses the point that post-modernism isn't something that you create or happens. It's something that exists or has always existed. It's a theory that describes how things are. A massive oversimplification of post-modernism is that there are multiple perspectives on things and how those things appear depends on where you're coming from. Think of the young lady-old hag picture or the duck and bunny picture. That's not something that's created. It's just a way of conceptualizing how things are.

Edit to add: Taking what I said above, that makes the whole "anti-postmodernist" thing a bit bizarre. As bizarre as say being "anti-gravity." That's great that you don't believe in gravity but do you have a better explanation that's testable and observable in a scientifically rigorous way? But then again, what more can you expect from a crowd who "doesn't believe" in "evolution" because it's "just a theory."
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 02:45:55 pm by cybercoma »

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #118 on: March 05, 2021, 03:02:26 pm »
   Consequently, folks on the left, which are a bunch of the people on this forum like black dog and cyberc, are postmodernists, and fight for more equal outcomes among identity groups through whichever means.   

A fallacy.  There is a strong left anti-woke... the idea of painting ALL left as "Work" is a FOX & Friends programming directive.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #119 on: March 05, 2021, 03:35:45 pm »
A fallacy.  There is a strong left anti-woke... the idea of painting ALL left as "Work" is a FOX & Friends programming directive.

Not all left are woke i agree.  Sguiggy isn't woke.
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