Author Topic: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?  (Read 15943 times)

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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #915 on: January 19, 2023, 12:30:09 pm »
Nonsense.  Speaking out against government mandated speech is not any of that.

You're right.   It's the stuff that came later that matters.

Offline Moonbox

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #916 on: January 19, 2023, 12:38:05 pm »
Nonsense.  Speaking out against government mandated speech is not any of that.

That's the part that I agreed with him on. 

And the fact we have so many people believe so is very scary for our continuation of a free society.  We’re falling closer and closer towards compassionate authoritarianism.  Because people have forgotten how messy and disorganized freedom can be some times.

If this was the sort of stuff he was still talking about, and doing so academically, I'd still be in his corner, but he's not.  Now he's just another provocative troll, delivering his edgelord hot-takes on issues in which he has no expertise and which invariably (seemingly by default) are the ones that the angry rabble already believe. 

He's a charlatan and a clown now - another Tucker Carlson. 

Offline Black Dog

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #917 on: January 19, 2023, 01:10:11 pm »
I first heard about Jordan Peterson when the Lindsey Shephard case came out in the news, where she was censured by the Wilfrid Laurier faculty for showing a video of Jordan Peterson speaking on free speech and gender issues.  This was a ridiculous case of out-of-touch political correctness gone overboard and the sort of thing that anyone but the most rabidly prone to outrage could get behind.  I was ready to fall in behind him on this.  It's the sort of thing that a Conservative government could highlight and campaign on - free speech and freedom of though in our colleges and universities. 

Instead, Jordan Peterson sold himself out and embraced culture-war bullshit and anger for the sake of anger.

There's also the part where he misrepresented the law and what it would do. In other words he was totally full of crap from the jump and plenty of folks knew it.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #918 on: January 19, 2023, 01:11:45 pm »
Nonsense.  Speaking out against government mandated speech is not any of that.  And the fact we have so many people believe so is very scary for our continuation of a free society.  We’re falling closer and closer towards compassionate authoritarianism.  Because people have forgotten how messy and disorganized freedom can be some times.

You've spoken in favour of book bans and the government punishing private corporations that disagree with state policies, so you might consider shutting the f*ck up on this.

Offline Moonbox

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #919 on: January 19, 2023, 01:55:57 pm »
There's also the part where he misrepresented the law and what it would do. In other words he was totally full of crap from the jump and plenty of folks knew it.

It's because he doesn't actually know anything about half the things on which he mouths off.  He likes to quote 17th-19th century philosophers, but doesn't actually understand their writing.  He likes to weigh in on geo-politics, but doesn't know much about history, economics, war, etc. 

Offline Black Dog

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #920 on: January 19, 2023, 02:05:54 pm »
It's because he doesn't actually know anything about half the things on which he mouths off.  He likes to quote 17th-19th century philosophers, but doesn't actually understand their writing.  He likes to weigh in on geo-politics, but doesn't know much about history, economics, war, etc.

I guess I'm asking why you bought his bs in the beginning when there were plenty of voices out there saying he was out to lunch re: C-16.

Offline Moonbox

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #921 on: January 19, 2023, 02:49:16 pm »
I guess I'm asking why you bought his bs in the beginning when there were plenty of voices out there saying he was out to lunch re: C-16.

I wasn't really interested in his points about C-16, but rather his criticism of group-think, censorship and intellectual homogeny (such as the Lindsey Shepherd case at Laurier, years ago). 

I still feel that our colleges and university are suffering for lack of diversity-of-thought, but whatever good ideas Peterson had on this topic is drowning in the other stupidity he promotes. 

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #922 on: January 19, 2023, 03:40:37 pm »
There's also the part where he misrepresented the law and what it would do. In other words he was totally full of crap from the jump and plenty of folks knew it.

Uhh except the part where Lindsay Shepherd was soon hauled in front of uni admin who told her she may have broken the Ontario Human Rights Code law for discrimination re: gender identity and expression for even showing JP's arguments in a TV clip.

Yeah certainly nobody would ever use the law against a prof for failing to use someone's preferred pronoun and "government-compelled speech" is just some fantasy.  Rolly eyes emoji.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #923 on: January 19, 2023, 04:39:59 pm »
Uhh except the part where Lindsay Shepherd was soon hauled in front of uni admin who told her she may have broken the Ontario Human Rights Code law for discrimination re: gender identity and expression for even showing JP's arguments in a TV clip.


Yeah that's not really what happened, but go off I guess.

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Yeah certainly nobody would ever use the law against a prof for failing to use someone's preferred pronoun and "government-compelled speech" is just some fantasy.  Rolly eyes emoji.

Yes.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #924 on: January 19, 2023, 04:47:16 pm »
I wasn't really interested in his points about C-16, but rather his criticism of group-think, censorship and intellectual homogeny (such as the Lindsey Shepherd case at Laurier, years ago). 

I still feel that our colleges and university are suffering for lack of diversity-of-thought, but whatever good ideas Peterson had on this topic is drowning in the other stupidity he promotes.

Have you considered that the stupidity Peterson promotes is actually representative of contemporary conservative thought and the sort of thing that should be kept out of higher education?

Offline Moonbox

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #925 on: January 19, 2023, 04:57:43 pm »
Have you considered that the stupidity Peterson promotes is actually representative of contemporary conservative thought and the sort of thing that should be kept out of higher education?

If you've read anything I've said about the guy in this thread, it should be apparent I think he's a turd.  That doesn't automatically mean that everything he ever said was wrong, and if you think higher education needs to be insulated from even seeing bad or questionable ideas, you're a symptom of the problem I'm describing, and part of the reason toxic asshats like Peterson get any traction. 
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #926 on: January 19, 2023, 05:40:47 pm »
If you've read anything I've said about the guy in this thread, it should be apparent I think he's a turd.  That doesn't automatically mean that everything he ever said was wrong, and if you think higher education needs to be insulated from even seeing bad or questionable ideas, you're a symptom of the problem I'm describing, and part of the reason toxic asshats like Peterson get any traction.

I think it's nonsensical to talk about the need for "diversity of thought" without actually discussing what that looks like in practice and what kind of ideas need to be shared.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #927 on: January 19, 2023, 06:23:32 pm »
Yeah that's not really what happened, but go off I guess.

You're right, her bosses at the uni said the arguments JP presented were "counter to the Canadian Human Rights Code" and "might have violated the Ontario Human Rights Code".  I mistakenly only mentioned the Ontario code:

"The professor added that Peterson's arguments were "counter to the Canadian Human Rights Code [sic]",[18][a] and that what had happened in class had been contrary to the university's Gendered and Sexual Violence Policy; the manager offered the view that it might have violated the Ontario Human Rights Code."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindsay_Shepherd

Yeah but Jordan Peterson trans aaaaaaahhhh!  He was so right it took about 5 seconds after he came out disagreeing with it for some lefty uni admins to threaten someone over the code for not even discriminating against anyone but showing a tv clip.  And we already have examples of employers being fined in Canada based on human rights code laws for misgendering trans people.

https://www.oba.org/JUST/Archives_List/2021/November-2021/Whats-in-a-Pronoun-Two-human-rights-tribunals-fi

But all these "expert lawyers" who didn't know sh!t came out against JP at the time and said it wouldn't happen and you still believe them for some reason.  So since JP out-lawyered the lawyers without hardly knowing d!ck about law maybe he should become a lawyer once the Stalinist nuts like you take away his psychologist credentials so he can just skip the twitter rage and just sue everyone for free.

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Offline Black Dog

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #928 on: January 19, 2023, 07:05:42 pm »
You're right, her bosses at the uni said the arguments JP presented were "counter to the Canadian Human Rights Code" and "might have violated the Ontario Human Rights Code".  I mistakenly only mentioned the Ontario code:

"The professor added that Peterson's arguments were "counter to the Canadian Human Rights Code [sic]",[18][a] and that what had happened in class had been contrary to the university's Gendered and Sexual Violence Policy; the manager offered the view that it might have violated the Ontario Human Rights Code."

And they were wrong, the university apologized and Shepherd got her free speech martyr grift on.

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Yeah but Jordan Peterson trans aaaaaaahhhh!  He was so right it took about 5 seconds after he came out disagreeing with it for some lefty uni admins to threaten someone over the code for not even discriminating against anyone but showing a tv clip.  And we already have examples of employers being fined in Canada based on human rights code laws for misgendering trans people.

Oh sure dude:

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On March 30, 2021, the Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario (the “HRTO”) held in EN v Gallagher’s Bar and Lounge, 2021 HRTO 240 (the “Gallagher Decision”) that employees who were subject to transphobic slurs, misgendering, and outing by their employer were discriminated against in their employment on the basis of gender identity, gender expression and sex.

I'm also pretty sure we have previously covered the other one which was about a bar manager creating a hostile work environment for a trans employer, not simply "oh they used the wrong pronouns."

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But all these "expert lawyers" who didn't know sh!t came out against JP at the time and said it wouldn't happen and you still believe them for some reason. 

Yeah because his claim was the law would criminalize the failure to use individual’s preferred pronouns which was and is spectacularly stupid and wrong.

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So since JP out-lawyered the lawyers without hardly knowing d!ck about law maybe he should become a lawyer once the Stalinist nuts like you take away his psychologist credentials so he can just skip the twitter rage and just sue everyone for free.

"He out lawyered the lawyers by being spectacularly wrong about the law" is a helluva take.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #929 on: January 19, 2023, 09:03:00 pm »
I'm also pretty sure we have previously covered the other one which was about a bar manager creating a hostile work environment for a trans employer, not simply "oh they used the wrong pronouns."
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Yeah because his claim was the law would criminalize the failure to use individual’s preferred pronouns which was and is spectacularly stupid and wrong.

No he said being forced by the law to use someone's preferred pronouns is compelled speech, and is likely what will happen when C-16 wants to add "gender identity or expression" as a prohibited ground of discrimination under the Canadian Human Rights Act, plus adding it under criminal grounds re: hate speech.

Apparently you forget what the Ontario Human Rights Commission states on their website about misgendering transgender folks under the ON Code (that it's an illegal form of discrimination).  Sure sounds like a prof misgendering a student is illegal, and sounds like C-16 will extend this to areas of federal jurisdiction plus add gender identity/expression to its criminal hate speech laws.

https://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/questions-and-answers-about-gender-identity-and-pronouns

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Is it a violation of the Code to not address people by their choice of pronoun?

The law recognizes that everyone has the right to self-identify their gender and that “misgendering” is a form of discrimination.

As one human rights tribunal said: “Gender …may be the most significant factor in a person’s identity. It is intensely personal. In many respects how we look at ourselves and define who we are starts with our gender.”[1] The Tribunal found misgendering to be discriminatory in a case involving police, in part because the police used male pronouns despite the complainant’s self-identification as a trans woman.

Refusing to refer to a trans person by their chosen name and a personal pronoun that matches their gender identity, or purposely misgendering, will likely be discrimination when it takes place in a social area covered by the Code, including employment, housing and services like education.
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Doesn’t this interfere with freedom expression?

Our lawmakers and courts recognize the right to freedom of expression, and at the same time, that no right is absolute. Expression may be limited where, for example, it is hate speech under criminal law.
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What if I have a complaint?

Organizations have a legal duty to maintain an environment free from discrimination and harassment because of gender identity and expression. They must investigate complaints and take steps to prevent and respond to violations of the Code.
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