Author Topic: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?  (Read 332 times)

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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #60 on: October 20, 2020, 05:27:17 pm »
I truly believe Jordan's real issue is in defending unequal pay for women for equal work.

He doesn't do that.  He says there's more than one variable in a multi-variable analysis.  But even saying that makes someone a sexist these days.

Here he talks about the wage gap and other gender issues:

https://youtu.be/aMcjxSThD54?t=316
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #61 on: October 20, 2020, 05:32:47 pm »
No, Jordan wouldn't want to call it that. So in reality Jordan isn't making any point worth defending.

To say the gender wage gap never involves discrimination is wrong, and to (say)do it's completely due to discrimination is wrong.


That's not really saying very much. I think that Jordan wants to say a lot more, and will do so if he gets some wind behind him. I'm not at all impressed with his schtick and you haven't provided anything to change my mind. He's likely in it for the money and not much else.

There's really nothing of any importance in the conservative or Conservative agenda that they can go forward with anymore. Certainly not healthcare reform but if you have something to propose I'm always interested in hearing it.

Yes you think he has an evil agenda based on things you think he wants to say but never does.  So he brings actual research and data to many of his claims, and you bring "hidden agendas" and totally unproven claims based on things created in your own mind.

This is what people said about Harper before he was elected and it never happened.  I'm not saying i'm a fan of Harper btw, but I'm saying people project a lot of BS based on zero evidence.  To you, all conservatives are just nefarious fools.  No point in having a discussion with those prejudicial assumptions.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline Montgomery

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #62 on: October 20, 2020, 05:43:04 pm »
He doesn't do that.  He says there's more than one variable in a multi-variable analysis.  But even saying that makes someone a sexist these days.

Here he talks about the wage gap and other gender issues:

https://youtu.be/aMcjxSThD54?t=316

It's the agenda of employers whose interest is making more profit. Some are inscrutable enough to stoop pretty low.

In my final analysis, Jordan lost me when he attempted to say he's not a Christian but he believes in the Christian god. Or however he tries to frame it. Sam Harris got him on that one too. And that's the reason he, a very intelligent person, would be more interested in being the darling of the right for the money in it.

You see Gorgeous, a darling of the right can't possibly be an atheist. He loses half his support if he tries that.
But a very intelligent person such as Jordan can't possibly be a Christian believer when he presumes to be able to debate very intelligent opponents like Sam.

Big problem for rightists of all schticks! They're disqualified before they even start!

And please! Don't even try to tell me that Christianity isn't the property of the right for the most part.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline Montgomery

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #63 on: October 20, 2020, 05:51:18 pm »
Yes you think he has an evil agenda based on things you think he wants to say but never does.  So he brings actual research and data to many of his claims, and you bring "hidden agendas" and totally unproven claims based on things created in your own mind.

This is what people said about Harper before he was elected and it never happened.  I'm not saying i'm a fan of Harper btw, but I'm saying people project a lot of BS based on zero evidence.  To you, all conservatives are just nefarious fools.  No point in having a discussion with those prejudicial assumptions.

Conservatism is nefariously foolish until they can present an alternative agenda to socially responsible capitalism, as is practiced in Canada. The challenge to you will always remain the same.

See my other post on the right owning religion and how that doesn't work for anybody trying to carry on a decent conversation that doesn't involve the supernatural.

The modern world has outgrown religious nonsense but the US still hangs on. That, sadly, means we've outgrown conservatism too.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline MH

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #64 on: October 20, 2020, 06:58:39 pm »
No it doesn't explain everything, but it might explain why more men go into engineering and more women go into medicine etc.

It might, but a professor should know about things like cause, correlation, and such.  This kind of speculation doesn't help the argument at all.  If there are differences in physiology that could explain inclinations to areas of knowledge, the assessment and analysis must be fathoms deeper than what he offers here.

If you agree with his thesis, even, he's doing it a disservice by presenting it with only surface level evidence.

 

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #65 on: October 22, 2020, 03:16:13 pm »
Conservatism is nefariously foolish until they can present an alternative agenda to socially responsible capitalism, as is practiced in Canada. The challenge to you will always remain the same.

See my other post on the right owning religion and how that doesn't work for anybody trying to carry on a decent conversation that doesn't involve the supernatural.

The modern world has outgrown religious nonsense but the US still hangs on. That, sadly, means we've outgrown conservatism too.

I have no problem with people who believe in God or are religious in their personal lives, I have a problem when they try to ram it down everyone's throats and it makes for bad policy that most people don't want, like say Andrew Scheer.  I would suspect you feel the same i hope.

I am also for "socially responsible capitalism".  Meaning capitalism where there is robust regulations to protect people and the environment from greed & exploitation and an adequate social safety net for those in need.

I am also for responsible government budgets & spending, people taking personal responsibility for their own actions, general law and order, standing up to foreign actors with bad intentions against Canada or otherwise take advantage of our kindness etc.  Which is to say, i'm a moderate.

Saying "progressivism is bad" or "conservatism is bad" is too vague for me.  There's a thousand political stances under those umbrellas, I'd rather deal with those on a case-by-case basis than start over-generalizing.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #66 on: October 22, 2020, 03:23:18 pm »
It might, but a professor should know about things like cause, correlation, and such.  This kind of speculation doesn't help the argument at all.  If there are differences in physiology that could explain inclinations to areas of knowledge, the assessment and analysis must be fathoms deeper than what he offers here.

If you agree with his thesis, even, he's doing it a disservice by presenting it with only surface level evidence.

He references studies in the research literature.  He has a PhD in clinical psychology, he's not making stuff up.  I'm not sure he references physiology, but he does talk about the nature vs nuture debate a bit if I recall.  His focus is on career preference.

You're asking him for evidence but you keep making up things he supposedly says without evidence.  If your opinions of him are based on what twitter says about him rather than what he actually says then i'm not interested in that convo.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline MH

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #67 on: October 22, 2020, 03:37:44 pm »
He references studies in the research literature.  He has a PhD in clinical psychology, he's not making stuff up.  I'm not sure he references physiology, but he does talk about the nature vs nuture debate a bit if I recall.  His focus is on career preference.

Yeah, but so what ?  He cites a study and then uses it to explain a complex cultural phenomenon... the 2nd part - the part he added - is loose and unsubstantiated.

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You're asking him for evidence but you keep making up things he supposedly says without evidence. 

Like what ?

Offline Montgomery

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #68 on: October 22, 2020, 05:12:50 pm »
I have no problem with people who believe in God or are religious in their personal lives, I have a problem when they try to ram it down everyone's throats and it makes for bad policy that most people don't want, like say Andrew Scheer.  I would suspect you feel the same i hope.

I feel much the same but that which you consider 'ramming it down everybody's throats could mean something quite different from what it means to me. I have some problems with even religions still existing for a few reasons, even though I'm not actively working to eliminate it. I think we're probably pretty close to agreement on that.

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I am also for "socially responsible capitalism".  Meaning capitalism where there is robust regulations to protect people and the environment from greed & exploitation and an adequate social safety net for those in need.

I could say the same thing on that.

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I am also for responsible government budgets & spending, people taking personal responsibility for their own actions, general law and order, standing up to foreign actors with bad intentions against Canada or otherwise take advantage of our kindness etc.  Which is to say, i'm a moderate.

Agreed, as long as the devils aren't in the details.

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Saying "progressivism is bad" or "conservatism is bad" is too vague for me.  There's a thousand political stances under those umbrellas, I'd rather deal with those on a case-by-case basis than start over-generalizing.

Yes, I basically agree but! I have a lot of difficulty with trying to determine what 'conservatism' actually means now in this 21st. century. Can conservatives actually lay claim to some political philosophy as theirs? What could it be for you, supposing you consider it to be something?

'Progressivism' is an erroneous term that seems to me to be used in a wrong context by mostly Americans. In my opinion 'progress' can't become a derogatory term.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #69 on: October 22, 2020, 05:41:03 pm »
Yes, I basically agree but! I have a lot of difficulty with trying to determine what 'conservatism' actually means now in this 21st. century. Can conservatives actually lay claim to some political philosophy as theirs? What could it be for you, supposing you consider it to be something?

"Conservatism" is too broad a term for it to mean much of anything to judge good vs bad.  It could mean social conservatism, economic conservatism, libertarianism, rightwing populism, evangelicalism etc.

I share some conservative views, even some social conservative views, and yet i'm an atheist and don't like the GOP at all.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline Montgomery

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #70 on: October 22, 2020, 05:58:52 pm »
"Conservatism" is too broad a term for it to mean much of anything to judge good vs bad.  It could mean social conservatism, economic conservatism, libertarianism, rightwing populism, evangelicalism etc.

I share some conservative views, even some social conservative views, and yet i'm an atheist and don't like the GOP at all.

I'm not asking what it could mean, I'm specifically asking for some particular political platform that can be considered their property.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline Montgomery

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #71 on: October 23, 2020, 01:30:32 pm »
Last night I watched the utube video on Peterson and Dillahunty's conversation. (debate)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgAoQBgM558

It's a little long at 1hr. and 45 but I don't regret spending the time on it. I was quite surprised to see how poorly Jordan performed against Dillahunty, who probably can't be said to be Jordan's intellectual equal. So I had to wonder if Jordan was ill or becoming ill, or there was some other reason for his poor performance?

Frankly, Jordan appeared to be sarcastic and mocking of Dillahunty at times and was quite remarkably put down on one occasion by Dillahunty.

For those fans of Jordan Peterson who care to watch this, maybe they can come up for an opinion on why Jordan performed so badly. And of course that is, if they perceive that he did perform badly.

It was almost  as if Peterson was trying to demonstrate that he was lowering himself in some way by even recognizing Dillahunty as a debating opponent.

However, considering the topic being discussed, there's little doubt that Dillahunty knows his stuff as well as anyone and that begs the question on whether or not Peterson was just completely outclassed?

If anybody can afford the time to watch this one, I would find your comments very interesting. What could possibly be the reason why Peterson allowed himself to be so completely outclassed by Dillahunty?
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline Montgomery

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #72 on: October 23, 2020, 04:00:46 pm »
If it turns out that nobody has the time to do the whole hour and three-quarters, here's a six and a half minute vid on some of the highlights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryHEBDnAnjw

What the hell had gone wrong with Jordan? Or is that the best he has to offer on religion/God debates?
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline Montgomery

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #73 on: October 25, 2020, 02:33:03 pm »
Too bad nobody has enough confidence in Jordan Peterson to defend him now.

He would be finished if it wasn't for the value he is to debaters who are in it for the money. His religious convictions and the fact that he couldn't reconcile that with reality has been his downfall. Possibly also his mental breakdown too.

Will he try to make a comeback? Right now he looks like death warned over.

It that's it for this thread, thanks to those who contributed. I've learned something from it on Peterson.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.
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Offline Montgomery

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #74 on: October 27, 2020, 06:22:44 pm »
How delightful that none of his supporters want to defend the asshole anymore! He's literally fallen off the rails and it wont be a surprise if we hear about his accidental ............................ whatever?
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.