Author Topic: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?  (Read 1184 times)

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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #195 on: March 21, 2021, 04:56:39 pm »
@graham

I will repeat:


I get why people get angry over JP.  We NEED a voice of this tone, but to unify us and bring everyone together.  Instead, we get another toxic disappointment, a faux intellectual who charms the ignorant and - rather than unify - reinforces their chauvinism.

He can be an ass, this is undeniable.  Sometimes his arguments are wrong, and sometimes even stupid.  I refer mainly to his political arguments.  I don't in any way hold his political opinions up to be in any way flawless.  He's also not the ideal academic, because a true ideal academic would be far less political and try to be more objective.  But sometimes he says things which need to be said, and most are afraid to say it because they'll be attacked like Peterson is.  He can also lose his temper sometimes, he's a pretty intense dude even when calm.  I think when you're attacked constantly on many tv programs you appear on, which is already a stressful environment, losing one's temper becomes even more likely.  If the standard is perfection, then he isn't that at all.

I don't think his role is to be a unifier.  Sure that would be nice.  The role he has chosen is to make unapologetic arguments that are contrary to the modern mainstream liberal paradigm, which of course will make you a lot of enemies from those who buy hard into the paradigm.

He has helped millions of people with his psychology/self-help stuff, this is by far his most valuable contribution.  A lot of it is to simply grow up and take responsibility in one's life. For those that refuse to do so or enable others to not do so I guess I can see why they might not like him for that.

None of this will change the way anyone sees him, people have made up their minds.  H8ers gonna h8.
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Offline MH

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #196 on: March 21, 2021, 05:12:39 pm »
He can be an ass, this is undeniable.  Sometimes his arguments are wrong, and sometimes even stupid.  I refer mainly to his political arguments.  I don't in any way hold his political opinions up to be in any way flawless.  He's also not the ideal academic, because a true ideal academic would be far less political and try to be more objective.  But sometimes he says things which need to be said, and most are afraid to say it because they'll be attacked like Peterson is.  He can also lose his temper sometimes, he's a pretty intense dude even when calm.  I think when you're attacked constantly on many tv programs you appear on, which is already a stressful environment, losing one's temper becomes even more likely.  If the standard is perfection, then he isn't that at all.

Ok.

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I don't think his role is to be a unifier.  Sure that would be nice.  The role he has chosen is to make unapologetic arguments that are contrary to the modern mainstream liberal paradigm, which of course will make you a lot of enemies from those who buy hard into the paradigm.

I'm just trying to explain why people get upset with him.

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He has helped millions of people with his psychology/self-help stuff, this is by far his most valuable contribution.  A lot of it is to simply grow up and take responsibility in one's life. For those that refuse to do so or enable others to not do so I guess I can see why they might not like him for that.

If it helps a single person then good.  It's still 'iffy' and sketchy if he doles out advice and doesn't take it.  But ok.

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None of this will change the way anyone sees him, people have made up their minds.  H8ers gonna h8.

I stand by my reason as to why h8trs h8 P8rson

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #197 on: March 21, 2021, 05:18:23 pm »
I'm just trying to explain why people get upset with him.

He's a culture warrior and it's a culture war.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline MH

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #198 on: March 21, 2021, 07:25:47 pm »
He's a culture warrior and it's a culture war.

You're not getting it.

Who do the Trumpys hate more: John McCain or AOC ?  Mitt Romney or Oprah Winfrey ?

The turncoats are the ones that are hated.  Peterson is inside the fort - a U of T academic ? 

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #199 on: March 21, 2021, 09:31:05 pm »
You're not getting it.

Who do the Trumpys hate more: John McCain or AOC ?  Mitt Romney or Oprah Winfrey ?

The turncoats are the ones that are hated.  Peterson is inside the fort - a U of T academic ?

He's hated because people don't like his politics. All the people who hate him greatly dislike his political opinions. Transphobe anti-feminist upholding the white patriarchy.  Most people use the "he's not a great academic" as a cover to discredit him because they hate him.  Most people don't give a crap about lazy academics if they're fighting on their side of the culture war.  Hence Peterson and Michael Eric Dyson are celebs and then fight when they get in a room together because they say dumb and rude things as angry sword-carrying culture warriors...and their minions get angry and pile on.

CULTURE WAR.

100% of the people who like Jordan have right or center-right leanings, and 100% of the people who hate him have left or center-left leanings.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 09:34:23 pm by Gorgeous Graham »
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #200 on: March 21, 2021, 10:22:30 pm »
That's weird that you read a book by someone you despise.  We all know you didn't read it and have no idea what you're talking about.

I don't need to eat s**t to know it's bad.

His self help stuff is trite and the rest of his schtick is toxic.
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Offline waldo

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #201 on: April 02, 2021, 11:06:12 am »
Alberta's new K-6 curriculum... If you need further evidence that this is really f**ked up, it's been endorsed by the stupidest man alive.

a true reveal twitter thread... showcasing some of Peterson's finest - video lasts forevah!

https://twitter.com/zei_squirrel/status/1331505661817937921

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #202 on: July 20, 2021, 08:01:59 pm »
I bought Jordan's 10 rules book, was a good price, put it on the shelf for future perusing.  His book is filled with psychology citations/footnotes.  It is not a political book.

I still maintain that his political opinions are just one man's opinions, people will like or dislike them based on their political leanings so take them or leave them whatever (he has no formal academic expertise on politics), but his work as a clinical psychologist is fantastic if not brilliant and can and have helped and/or saved many, many people.  H8ers gonna H8 but the proof is in the pudding, meaning the countless who thank him for his work and the impact it has had on his life.

People will disagree, but IMO his work as a clinical psychologist makes him the most important public intellectual of the 21th century thus far.,simply based on the lives he's turning around  People should try to forget his politics and listen to what he has to say in his field of expertise.

I will not respond to criticisms of him based on his political positions because its boring and besides my point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJrEaLYacwc
« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 09:30:37 pm by Gorgeous Graham »
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Offline MH

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #203 on: July 20, 2021, 08:11:41 pm »

I still maintain that his political opinions are just one man's opinions, people will like or dislike them based on their political leanings so take them or leave them whatever (he has no formal academic expertise on politics), but his work as a clinical psychologist is fantastic if not brilliant and can and have helped and/or saved many, many people.  H8ers gonna H8 but the proof is in the pudding, meaning the countless who thank him for his work and the impact it has had on his life.

How would you know that unless he treated someone you knew ?

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People will disagree, but IMO his work as a clinical psychologist makes him the most important public intellectual of the 20th century thus far.,simply based on the lives he's turning around  People should try to forget his politics and listen to what he has to say in his field of expertise.

The 20th century... thus... far.... uh...

I can accept that he's a good doctor but ... intellectually, no.
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I will not respond to criticisms of him based on his political positions because its boring and besides my point.

Nobody should criticize anyone based on POSITIONS.  I trust that almost any position is held by someone somewhere smarter than you or me.

I have been listening to this (again) ... these people are intellectuals.  Note how they don't descend into a pissing match even though their positions are extremely different.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4Jcl7tmt9k&t=1s

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #204 on: July 20, 2021, 09:56:45 pm »
How would you know that unless he treated someone you knew ?

Reviews of his book from verified buyers on Amazon, Youtube comments, comments from him during interviews etc.

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The 20th century... thus... far.... uh...
21st century, correct my error.

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I have been listening to this (again) ... these people are intellectuals.  Note how they don't descend into a pissing match even though their positions are extremely different.

He's not often a good debater on political topics.  Your criticism is fair.  Depending on his mood he tends to get agitated/angry easily.  Maybe some of this is due to him being a prof and used to being on a pulpit for decades rather than being legitimately questioned regularly.  I think some of it is also the nature of discussing politics, which is more personal and activist in nature.  Discussing politics can get very emotional and people get defensive easily ("religion and politics" as they say). I think people with an academic background in political science and similar subjects tend to be better at looking at political issues from an academic perspective rather than an activist perspective since that's how they're trained.  In political discussions he's positioned himself as a culture warrior rather than an academic.

People don't even want to listen to the academics on political issues.  You get accused of the 'all sides" argument and people want you to draw a line in the sand.  If you want to properly study ie: fascism or Donald Trump it's irrelevant whether you're for it or against it personally, that will just insert personal bias into your research.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #205 on: July 20, 2021, 10:26:10 pm »
I have been listening to this (again) ... these people are intellectuals.  Note how they don't descend into a pissing match even though their positions are extremely different.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4Jcl7tmt9k&t=1s

Here's what i'm talking about.  Listen to this question and the response by Peterson, the whole clip should run about 4-5 minutes.  It's about attaining happiness, it's not about politics.  The answer is insightful.  This is the type of stuff that has helped many people:

https://youtu.be/qsHJ3LvUWTs?t=6968
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline MH

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #206 on: July 21, 2021, 05:00:58 am »
Ok, I think that the only thing that you are saying that I question is any evidence of brilliance.

So if you are saying it on the basis of online reviews of his self help books, I can't buy in.  Sure, it's great to have a program that is helpful to people but there are a lot of lost souls out there.  And as I said above, what we really need is someone who can both help these lost souls as well as unify.

But also you have given me a video, where I can judge for myself.  I will look at it.

I have a friend, far to the left of me and older, who moved to Vancouver Island and he started writing to me about JP.  Because I only know about his fumbling political statements I fought him.  But maybe there's something there.

I did one self help program: Seven Habits of Effective People by Covey.

Offline MH

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #207 on: July 21, 2021, 02:17:36 pm »
Here's what i'm talking about.  Listen to this question and the response by Peterson, the whole clip should run about 4-5 minutes.  It's about attaining happiness, it's not about politics.  The answer is insightful.  This is the type of stuff that has helped many people:
 

I suppose so.  But who ?  People who are lost, no doubt.  So it's a good bit of self-help for people adrift in a damaged society.

Do JP's own fans feel they need this advice ?  Or are they applauding him for telling other people to do it ?

He also falls on the same rocks that other moralists have: his own moral failing.

But I'll give you that this is the best part of his schtick.  I am also very sad that he made the very bad decision to get famous first as a political figure because that cut out the possibility for him to provide the greatest utility as a unifier.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #208 on: July 21, 2021, 03:29:13 pm »
I bought Jordan's 10 rules book, was a good price, put it on the shelf for future perusing.  His book is filled with psychology citations/footnotes.  It is not a political book.

I still maintain that his political opinions are just one man's opinions, people will like or dislike them based on their political leanings so take them or leave them whatever (he has no formal academic expertise on politics), but his work as a clinical psychologist is fantastic if not brilliant and can and have helped and/or saved many, many people.  H8ers gonna H8 but the proof is in the pudding, meaning the countless who thank him for his work and the impact it has had on his life.

People will disagree, but IMO his work as a clinical psychologist makes him the most important public intellectual of the 21th century thus far.,simply based on the lives he's turning around  People should try to forget his politics and listen to what he has to say in his field of expertise.

Did every other public intellectual die?
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #209 on: July 23, 2021, 05:24:16 pm »
He also falls on the same rocks that other moralists have: his own moral failing.

And what would that be?

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But I'll give you that this is the best part of his schtick.  I am also very sad that he made the very bad decision to get famous first as a political figure because that cut out the possibility for him to provide the greatest utility as a unifier.

He didn't decide to get famous.  He spoke his mind and everyone else made him famous.

He's not a unifier, that's not his M.O.  If that's your randomly made-up measuring stick he will keep disappointing you.  Do we need a unifier?  Sure.  But that's not the role he's made for himself.  He's a rockstar, in that he's standing up to authority and rebelling against the zietgeist, even if it means some people who defend it get uncomfortable or offended, and he dares to sometimes look like an arse while being constantly attacked.  Is there no room for someone to have the balls to have an opinion progressives don't agree with?  Why not?  If he's wrong sometimes, so what? He threatens the hegemony of the mainstream do-gooders and so they absolutely flip out and make up all sorts of BS about him.  Like "his diet made him sick" and all this nonsense you yourself have bought into.

There's no point in convincing you of anything here because it's pointless.  You have a long record of defending the social and cultural positions of whatever we're told is "correct" to us by the mainstream politically correct do-gooders.  You have been "socially conditioned":  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_conditioning  If everyone were this compliant to authority it would be a gloomy world indeed.  Maybe myself and kimmy and Peterson and whomever else don't want to just shut up and obey.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.