Author Topic: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?  (Read 269 times)

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Offline MH

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2020, 11:55:33 am »
Like I say, there is room and even a need for someone like him... early on I had hoped he would be the guy.  But he's not.

Offline the_squid

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2020, 12:09:16 pm »
I think that people have to agree to a set of rules in order to engage in the discussion.  Jordan misgenders people who are in the discussion, which is offensive to the people who are in the discussion.  He is looking for the right to use whatever pronouns he wants, but he should be respectful in the discussion itself.

Otherwise, I guess it would be ok for other people in the discussion to call him fascist, idiot or whatever they like.  (It's not)

If anyone thinks that it is a societal norm to use the term ‘zhe’ or another made up term, it’s not.  Hence the discussion about it. 

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The Rebel is a far-right publication that promotes objectionable views.  He jumped into bed with them early on, because they promised to raise money for him.

You’ve gone from ‘extremist’ to ‘objectionable’.  Do you think those two terms are synonymous?

Offline JuniperRose

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2020, 12:47:41 pm »
If anyone thinks that it is a societal norm to use the term ‘zhe’ or another made up term, it’s not.  Hence the discussion about it. 


Language changes all the time, so if a word became commonly used it wouldn't be a 'made-up term' - I suppose the people who're interested in having a third pronoun to indicate non-gender are hoping for that outcome.

I don't mind calling people what they prefer, so if I met someone that wanted me to refer to them as "zhe', I would try to accommodate that even if I thought it was a bit weird or something.  Also, does spoken 'zhe' sound much like spoken 'she'?

Of course, you might ask me if I'd refer to someone as a pumpkin, if zhe asked me to.  And yes, for the time I was with them, I probably would - unless it was my job to talk them out of referring to themselves as a pumpkin, or if I was on an internet forum in which disagreement was the point of the discussion.

Offline MH

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2020, 12:58:34 pm »
If anyone thinks that it is a societal norm to use the term ‘zhe’ or another made up term, it’s not.  Hence the discussion about it. 

You have stepped over my point to make your own.  He misgendered people personally while talking to them.  I'm not saying he refused to say 'zhe'.
 He called someone by a word they didn't want to be called by.  That is another reason he's out of consideration for being in this discussion, for many.

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You’ve gone from ‘extremist’ to ‘objectionable’.  Do you think those two terms are synonymous?

Extremists are a subset of the set of objectionable people.

Offline Montgomery

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2020, 12:59:20 pm »
I think that people have to agree to a set of rules in order to engage in the discussion.  Jordan misgenders people who are in the discussion, which is offensive to the people who are in the discussion.  He is looking for the right to use whatever pronouns he wants, but he should be respectful in the discussion itself.

Otherwise, I guess it would be ok for other people in the discussion to call him fascist, idiot or whatever they like.  (It's not)

The Rebel is a far-right publication that promotes objectionable views.  He jumped into bed with them early on, because they promised to raise money for him.

There are many problems with Jordan's behaviour as a debater. Among them are his tendency to raise his voice in an attempt to belittle his opponents. But his big problem is the one he's attempting to build his reputation upon. He's trying to be the atheist and the believer at the same time and then he tries to invent some highly intelligent nuanced explanation for how that is possible. It just isn't of course but his fans are patient with him enough that they will wait in expectation of him delivering a satisfactory explanation. It will 'never' come.

And so that makes their Jordan just a flash in the pan who will never become a Richard Dawkins or a Sam Harris or even a Christopher Hitchens. If anyone thinks otherwise then they are obliged to state just what Jordan has contributed to society.

I'll watch him again on a utube video but it will only be to see somebody like Sam Harris destroy him.

Offline MH

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2020, 01:01:18 pm »
There are many problems with Jordan's behaviour as a debater. Among them are his tendency to raise his voice in an attempt to belittle his opponents. But his big problem is the one he's attempting to build his reputation upon. He's trying to be the atheist and the believer at the same time and then he tries to invent some highly intelligent nuanced explanation for how that is possible. It just isn't of course but his fans are patient with him enough that they will wait in expectation of him delivering a satisfactory explanation. It will 'never' come.

 :D

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And so that makes their Jordan just a flash in the pan who will never become a Richard Dawkins or a Sam Harris or even a Christopher Hitchens. If anyone thinks otherwise then they are obliged to state just what Jordan has contributed to society.

I'll watch him again on a utube video but it will only be to see somebody like Sam Harris destroy him.

I saw him with all of those people and they were SO gentle with him.  My suspicious is that they recognize he brings a giant flock of new curious people to wherever he goes and they want a piece of that.

Offline the_squid

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2020, 01:04:12 pm »

Extremists are a subset of the set of objectionable people.

So they’re not synonymous? 

Do you think The Rebel are extremists then?

When I think of ‘extremist’ I think of someone who uses or promotes violence to meet their goals.  Maybe you are using ‘extremist’ in another manner, but I don’t think we should be using a term that, in general usage, refers to people who use or promote violence to refer to people who we just disagree with. 

It’s a tactic that the cancel-culture ‘woke’ folks use often, and you seem to be using it too.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 01:05:51 pm by the_squid »

Offline Montgomery

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2020, 01:08:12 pm »
:D

I saw him with all of those people and they were SO gentle with him.  My suspicious is that they recognize he brings a giant flock of new curious people to wherever he goes and they want a piece of that.

I think that's a good explanation for the reason why highly intelligent people like Sam will debate him. But I wouldn't condemn Sam or any of them for doing what they do with Jordan. It's a perfectly legitimate way of getting an audience to which they can provide enlightenment. After all, there sit thousands of Christians who are listening carefully to real facts being presented by Sam and company.
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Offline MH

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2020, 01:10:23 pm »
So they’re not synonymous? 

No.

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Do you think The Rebel are extremists then?

Yes.

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When I think of ‘extremist’ I think of someone who uses or promotes violence to meet their goals.  Maybe you are using ‘extremist’ in another manner, but I don’t think we should be using a term that, in general usage, refers to people who use or promote violence to refer to people who we just disagree with. 

I think an extremist is someone with extreme views, such as someone who promotes racial hatred or similar views.

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It’s a tactic that the cancel-culture ‘woke’ folks use often, and you seem to be using it too.

Your mileage may vary, I guess.
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Offline the_squid

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2020, 01:13:58 pm »
I think that's a good explanation for the reason why highly intelligent people like Sam will debate him. But I wouldn't condemn Sam or any of them for doing what they do with Jordan. It's a perfectly legitimate way of getting an audience to which they can provide enlightenment. After all, there sit thousands of Christians who are listening carefully to real facts being presented by Sam and company.

Petersen’s crowd is a bunch of Christians?   I don’t think you’re reading the room very well.

While Petersen’s take on religion is that it is a necessary cultural phenomenon (for lack of a better term), he never comes out and actually says that God is a real entity.   That’s not a Christian perspective at all.  I think his fans are more about being non-PC, free-speech advocates than they are about being Christians.

Offline Montgomery

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2020, 01:24:54 pm »
Petersen’s crowd is a bunch of Christians?   I don’t think you’re reading the room very well.

While Petersen’s take on religion is that it is a necessary cultural phenomenon (for lack of a better term), he never comes out and actually says that God is a real entity.   That’s not a Christian perspective at all.  I think his fans are more about being non-PC, free-speech advocates than they are about being Christians.

I didn't suggest that Jordan's crowd are a bunch of Christians. They're more wannabe intellectuals than that, even though many are expectant Christians.
I think that Jordan offers an expectation for them that their faith can be plausible in the face of evidence that proves it just isn't. They think that Jordan's explaining, doubletalk, and hairsplitting  can make religous faith work.  But of course it never can.
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Offline the_squid

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2020, 01:32:21 pm »
I didn't suggest that Jordan's crowd are a bunch of Christians. They're more wannabe intellectuals than that, even though many are expectant Christians.
I think that Jordan offers an expectation for them that their faith can be plausible in the face of evidence that proves it just isn't. They think that Jordan's explaining, doubletalk, and hairsplitting  can make religous faith work.  But of course it never can.

I actually agree with you on this, but you also said ‘there sit thousands of Christians’.   I don’t think that’s accurate at all.

Offline Montgomery

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2020, 01:38:25 pm »
I actually agree with you on this, but you also said ‘there sit thousands of Christians’.   I don’t think that’s accurate at all.

Well, you can make it as accurate as you think it fits the description. And also note that many come to see Jordan be taken down by opponents of the caliber of Sam Harris.
How is the crowd split? 50/50 or 60/40 for Harris?
I would attend to see Harris or even better still for me would be Dawkins!  Poor dear Jordan.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2020, 09:07:23 pm »
This is a contradictory statement.  You’re trying to have your ‘woke’ and eat it too.  He didn’t deserve it, but it was his fault.   

For all the faults I find with the guy, he’s all about civil discourse.  The ‘woke’ activists are the a-holes who can’t handle any disagreement with the positions that they hold sacred.  Their allies, like yourself, make excuses for them, even when they’re clearly in the wrong.

Jesus Christ...we agree on something!
"The economy has been relatively strong but Trudeau has chosen to run deficits year after year & has said will continue to do so well into the future.  This means we'll be in a worse & more vulnerable financial position when a recession hits when we HAVE to run deficits again." - Me, Oct. 3, 2019
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Offline MH

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2020, 09:10:22 pm »
Jesus Christ...we agree on something!

You're both wrong if you think that the guy who insults people is about 'civil discourse'.

"Jeez, what is wrong with these n***s that they refuse to discuss civilly??"
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