Author Topic: Harvey Weinstein, serial sex predator.  (Read 1603 times)

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Harvey Weinstein, serial sex predator.
« Reply #150 on: January 16, 2018, 08:28:23 pm »
So here's the woman's story...

https://babe.net/2018/01/13/aziz-ansari-28355

 ...and here's Ashleigh Banfield giving it the response it deserves.

Yeah, on MSNBC this morning they were basically saying that what she was complaining about was bad sex, and that this guy is basically guilty of not being terribly sensitive to the unspoken cues of his partner.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein, serial sex predator.
« Reply #151 on: January 16, 2018, 08:55:47 pm »
Yeah, on MSNBC this morning they were basically saying that what she was complaining about was bad sex, and that this guy is basically guilty of not being terribly sensitive to the unspoken cues of his partner.

The BBC World Service made it plain that he damn well should have been...

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Harvey Weinstein, serial sex predator.
« Reply #152 on: January 16, 2018, 09:42:01 pm »
The BBC World Service made it plain that he damn well should have been...

Should have been.....  what?

guest7

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Re: Harvey Weinstein, serial sex predator.
« Reply #153 on: January 16, 2018, 10:37:44 pm »
Should have been.....  what?

Sensitive to the unspoken cues of his partner.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Harvey Weinstein, serial sex predator.
« Reply #154 on: January 16, 2018, 11:11:45 pm »
Should have been.....  what?

Should have been a mind-reader, apparently. 

Quote
When Ansari told her he was going to grab a condom within minutes of their first kiss, Grace voiced her hesitation explicitly. “I said something like, ‘Whoa, let’s relax for a sec, let’s chill.’” She says he then resumed kissing her, briefly performed oral sex on her, and asked her to do the same thing to him. She did, but not for long. “It was really quick. Everything was pretty much touched and done within ten minutes of hooking up, except for actual sex.”

If she was trying to show him that she wasn't interested in having sex with him, giving him a hummer was probably a poor way to express that. I think it's absurd how her story glosses over the fact that they had oral sex as she proceeds to complain that he failed to read all these "non-verbal cues" she was giving him.

This isn't sexual assault, this is somebody who felt used after having consexual sex.

Sorry, "Grace", I'm with Ms Bancroft on this one.

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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Harvey Weinstein, serial sex predator.
« Reply #155 on: January 17, 2018, 01:51:22 am »
Sensitive to the unspoken cues of his partner.

I don’t believe that the BBC said this.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Harvey Weinstein, serial sex predator.
« Reply #156 on: January 17, 2018, 04:38:09 am »
She did tell him she wanted to stop, but he persisted.

But we do seem to be getting to a different type of discussion now.

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Re: Harvey Weinstein, serial sex predator.
« Reply #157 on: January 17, 2018, 08:30:56 am »
Sensitive to the unspoken cues of his partner.

She could have left at any time.  I have, under much less provocation than she had.  I understand women are programmed to be polite and that played into her response to some degree; there are.probably few women who haven't gone farther than they wanted while trying to politely disengage.   But at some point women have to learn to say no loudly and firmly and give up the idea that men (or anyone) will be able to accurately read cues, or should even be required to. 
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Harvey Weinstein, serial sex predator.
« Reply #158 on: January 17, 2018, 09:08:36 am »
She did tell him she wanted to stop, but he persisted.

But we do seem to be getting to a different type of discussion now.

Show me in the "babe" article any point where she tells him to stop.  Since the other articles on this subject are paraphrased from her interview with "babe" I insist that this be sourced from the original article and not someone's paraphrasing.

She could have left at any time.  I have, under much less provocation than she had.  I understand women are programmed to be polite and that played into her response to some degree; there are.probably few women who haven't gone farther than they wanted while trying to politely disengage.   But at some point women have to learn to say no loudly and firmly and give up the idea that men (or anyone) will be able to accurately read cues, or should even be required to. 

Absolutely.


Quote
Perhaps what is especially threatening about Grace’s story is that it involves a situation in which many men can imagine themselves. But this is a reason to discuss it more, not to sweep it under the rug. Listening to Grace doesn’t mean deciding all men should go to prison, or should lose their jobs. It does mean admitting that many men behave in exactly the ways their culture tells them to behave. It means asking men to recognize that and do better, and it means changing the culture so that badgering and pressuring women into sex is deplored, not endorsed. None of this will happen if we refuse to reckon with stories like Grace’s.
https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/1/16/16894722/aziz-ansari-grace-babe-me-too

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« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 09:44:19 am by kimmy »
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Offline Goddess

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Re: Harvey Weinstein, serial sex predator.
« Reply #159 on: January 17, 2018, 10:21:35 am »
http://www.urbo.com/content/why-men-get-insulted-when-women-agree-with-a-compliment?rtg=wordables-CmjIbu&param4=urbo-fni-fbss-2106-demo

Men are a strange species.  :D

I agree women sometimes find themselves in situations because they are trying to politely say No.

Until you've been in a pub and experienced having a man go from wanting to take you home to wanting to kill you in the parking lot within 10 seconds for refusing his (possibly roofie'ed) drink, you probably won't understand what women deal with.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Harvey Weinstein, serial sex predator.
« Reply #160 on: January 18, 2018, 09:40:11 am »
If "Grace" and "babe.net" had billed their story as a gossip column-- "I went on a date with Aziz Ansari, and OMG he is SUCH a loser!"-- that would be one thing. But when it gets to the point where she calls this a sexual assault, when they try to make this a part of #MeToo, when they get all indignant because Ansari wore a "Time's Up" pin when he was at the Golden Globe awards, this is where they cross the line.


Trying to contend that the evening she described was a sexual assault trivializes sexual assault.  When that twat Lauren Southern, from Rebel Media, shows up at women's rallies with her sign that says "Regret is not ****" to troll everybody, this is exactly the kind of thing she's talking about.  "Grace" and "babe.net" have handed Lauren Southern and the women-haters and the alt-right and the MRA types a big bucket of ammo with what they've done here. I hate that they've made Lauren Southern look like she has a good point.


I also hate that they tried to make this a #MeToo story ...as if the evening "Grace" talked about had anything to do with #MeToo. Writing about how upsetting it was to see him with his "Time's Up" pin on the awards show.  It didn't. It's stupid of them to attempt to make that linkage.  But it's being seized on by critics of #MeToo as evidence that it has gone too far.  They've handed another big bucket of ammo to critics of #MeToo.


As much as I hate those two things, I also hate the larger notion that Ansari had some duty of care to "Grace".  It's infantilizing.  It makes it sound like she's a toddler and Ansari was a baby-sitter who was supposed to care for her and keep her entertained and happy. This is pure bullshit. She isn't a toddler, she is an adult. An adult is supposed to care for her own well-being.   Being on a date with someone who is only interested in having sex is hardly a unique situation. It's probably not the first time it's happened to "Grace" herself.   How did she make it this far in life if she can't even say "no"?


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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Harvey Weinstein, serial sex predator.
« Reply #161 on: January 19, 2018, 05:54:06 am »
I see your point.  Would it have been less insulting to you if she came up with a different hashtag for her experience.  Many have stated that although her experience was not in the same class as others, Ansari was still a cad, still behaved inappropriately, and perhaps that this story is important because it represents a more common experience that women have, and then men need to understand is not good behaviour.

I say very little about these stories, and when I do it's usually questions.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Harvey Weinstein, serial sex predator.
« Reply #162 on: January 19, 2018, 09:40:38 am »
I see your point.  Would it have been less insulting to you if she came up with a different hashtag for her experience.

Frankly, if I were to come up with a "social movement hashtag" for this article, I would be tempted to borrow Lauren Southern's.  #RegretIsNotRape.

If they wanted to spread sleazy gossip, I guess that's their right. 

Many have stated that although her experience was not in the same class as others, Ansari was still a cad,

Completely agreed. Sounds like an awful date.  Based on her review, I certainly wouldn't go out with him.

still behaved inappropriately,

I really question the use of the word "appropriate".  Telling people what's "appropriate" on a date is a ludicrous proposition.


and perhaps that this story is important because it represents a more common experience that women have, and then men need to understand is not good behaviour.


I somewhat agree that the story is important and should be talked about, but not for the reasons that some women are saying so.

We've been telling men that "no means no" for years.  We've been telling young women that they have the right to say "no" for years.  And I point out that when what's her name did finally say no, Ansari said "ok, let's chill with our clothes on" and they went and watched Seinfeld on opposite ends of the couch.

But understanding that "no means no" is apparently no longer good enough-- men are now apparently expected to understand that "yes sometimes means no also" and be able to correctly decipher mixed signals and tell between when she's really really into it and when she's not actually really into it, and anticipate whether she's going to be feeling regret or embarrassment when she's on the way home afterward.

This is ridiculous to me.

While I hope that many men will read about Ansari's cheesy moves and think "man, that guy is a loser, I don't want to be that guy" on their next date, I think the more  important lesson here is not for men, but for women.  I hope that women read the account and note that "Grace" didn't take any ownership of the experience.  You're not a toddler, you're an adult. Act like an adult. Assert yourself.

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Harvey Weinstein, serial sex predator.
« Reply #163 on: January 19, 2018, 10:50:15 am »
While I hope that many men will read about Ansari's cheesy moves and think "man, that guy is a loser, I don't want to be that guy" on their next date, I think the more  important lesson here is not for men, but for women.  I hope that women read the account and note that "Grace" didn't take any ownership of the experience.  You're not a toddler, you're an adult. Act like an adult. Assert yourself.


Behind every man who is a lousy lover is a string of women who faked orgasm and smiled and told them how good they were in bed because they liked them, or didn't want to hurt their feelings, or were worried about offending them etc.
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Offline Rue

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Re: Harvey Weinstein, serial sex predator.
« Reply #164 on: January 19, 2018, 01:00:07 pm »
I spent a lot of years in a court system trying to define whether there was consent or not to see if there were grounds for charges, convictions. So I do  appreciate the complexity of  issues dealing with sexual  behaviour and consent.  However without belittling the woman, for me the Ansari episode she has spoken of misunderstands or trivializes and dettracts from the crime of sexual assault and the discussion on what constitutes consensual sex.

Women are engaging in a debate as to how to deal with men in regards to sexual communications given the lack of intimacy attached to many sexual acts these days. Its like a market correction on the stock exchange if I can use that term. The pendelum has swung from repressed sexual expressions to anything goes and now the pendelum is swinging back in the direction of regulating or limiting unlimited boundaries of sexual expression.

This debate or discussion or behavioural correction is discussing an issue of how we as individuals wish to control and be the one in charge of our own physical bodies and in the case of women how, when and why they have a say over their bodies.

Signals as to how we should behave remain  confused. Whether this "market correction" leads to new rules and understanding, or swings back to a puritanical model of behaviour remains to be seen.

Like any social movement that challenges, people join the movement, then it literally becomes so large it either ceases to exist as it achieves what it set out to do in changing the status quo, or it implodes because of trivialization rendering it meaningless or a passing or spent fad. Given the attention span and trendiness of the celebrities embracing it, I fear it will soon be passe and they will move on to another cause celebre or trendy political issue.

The very term "me too"  is a red flag to me because if the sexual behaviour issues we discuss are to be rsolved ultimately they will have to be resolved one on one not in groups. Tyhe "me too" or peer group phenomena we now are seeing might be creating a false sense of security and short circuiting or circumventing or preventing properly processing such issues on an individual level where the individual learns and develops their own personal insights as to how they wish to handle or manage a situation with another individual.

The power of the group can be harnessed to usher change yes-but groups or gangs or collectives unfortunately  have the same effect on your frontal lobe as does alcohol. That is to say the pressure pr phenomena of the group enforcing a collective thought as to how to behave  loosens inhibitions including what would otherwise be self-limiting behaviour in regards to anger, fear,violence-in fact it does the opposite of empowering when it does this, it weakens people as individuals and leads them to believe they must join a group to be responsible for and get directions for how they behave as an individual.

I am form the school of thought that believe body control issues, body politics so to speak, like any human behaviour issue, to be managed in a healthy, adaptive, effective and meaningful manner, have to evolve and be created one on one by and  between individuals and by individuals taking responsibility on an individual level for their behaviour and in developing insights as to  how our behaviour as individuals and in groups negatively and positively impacts on others either collectively or individually.

I would also think most of us men know in anything we do, we must show civility and decency in how we behave which means, the stronger and more comfortable we feel with our masculinity the less likely we  need to express it forcefully.  Maybe we need to take some men and sit them down and explain to them to pay attention again to a woman's posture, eyes, non verbal language. Maybe...but I don't think its that simple.

I personally have been in groups I gave facilitated as a therapist (not as a lawyer in that role as I was in other cases) with violent men convicted of domestic violence and the most violent and ignorant of them knew what they were doing was non consensual. They know it lacked consensuality. The issue was they could not physically control themselves.

I can tell you if its a control issue, the remedies and solutions are a lot different than telling someone to  be sensitive and learn to read signals. "There are usually deeply entrenched underlying negative behaviour patterns that have evolved over many years or what we call maladaptive behaviour as opposed to positive adaptive behaviour. So there is no magic pill or cure.

At best rught now the legal system may quarrantine violent individuals but ironically it does so by placing them in institutions full of violence and ironically where sexual assault is a daily occurrence.

I wish I had easy answers for people. There are not any. This issue of how society regulates its primal instincts and urges has been going on as long as we existed. We are after all homo sapiens-a primal animal, a primate-an ape with primal urges. We learn to repress some of those urges to enable societies of cooperation to evolve or we let those urges loose with no controls.

We created religions basically to try control or negative primal behaviours. Sexual behaviour is but one component of those primal urges that can destroy or build a society depending on how we choose to express them.

« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 01:23:31 pm by Rue »
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