Author Topic: Gender Culture  (Read 56130 times)

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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2100 on: October 16, 2021, 12:16:27 am »
I think the objection to Darren's or any "man's" presence in a woman's changeroom is the assumption that "he" is sexually attracted to women and thereby invading their privacy with the potential for leering behaviour.
By that standard, how do you feel about lesbians and bisexual women being allowed in?

Bubber... I think you're the cleverest person on this forum by a mile. You're the closest thing the modern age has to a Mark Twain. So I hate having to say this, but I think you're way out in left field here.

If you grew up female in this society (or any other, I suspect) you'd understand the amount of time, attention, and "headspace" that go into protecting yourself from male violence.

(when I say headspace, I mean the things that every woman thinks about every day to avoid male violence or male antipathy. Everything from thinking about whether you're dressed too provocatively, to thinking about whether the route to home will take you to an unsafe place, to wondering whether the man who wants to chat with you at the bar is dangerous, to wondering whether your male coworkers will be angry if you speak up in response to a sexist joke. It's truly endless. I doubt you grasp it. )

So when you ask me why female people would be anxious when a male person arrives in a space where they're at their most vulnerable, it makes me think you're completely oblivious to the lived experience of female people.

I feel like if you think that the words "It's okay, I identify as a woman" should magically make female people comfortable with a male person's presence in their spaces then you're either incapable of empathy, or completely deranged.

 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2101 on: October 16, 2021, 12:31:43 am »
Real "Look woman I wouldn't hit you if you didnt make me mad." energy here.

Meanwhile you and the Woke Mafia be like "If you don't hop on the Girldick RIGHT NOW you FEEEEEMALES are going to be back in 1955!"

Wokies want women to believe that there are only two options: either embrace woke ideology, or forfeit everything women have gained in the past 50 years.

That's a false dichotomy.

The truth is that wokies have zero power if women aren't on board.

 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2102 on: October 16, 2021, 12:55:59 am »
She's fine with it if she thinks they are hot, but not if they are, like, really butch.

That's pretty scummy. But rather than play the indignation card or homophobia card, I will move on to this:

You're being too charitable. We had a discussion many many pages back where kimmy said the issue is that too many trans people using women's spaces are "obviously male" and that "passing individuals could come and go without anybody noticing." When I pointed out this standard would probably lead to a lot of masculine or butch-looking people getting confronted or harassed, her response was "it is what it its." 

And what I told you at the time is that the issue is not peformative femininity, the issue is the OBVIOUSLY MALE part of the equation.

You told me that I've probably shared a washroom with some trans woman without even knowing and posted pictures of Contrapoints and that trans SI model and whoever else to illustrate the point that some trans women are highly passing.

And highly passing is the key point here.

Some trans women are highly passing and could easily enter female spaces without causing any anxiety whatsoever. Contrapoints or Blaire White or Nichole Maines or that SI model could enter a women's washroom without causing anybody any anxiety.

But trans right activists aren't fighting for the right for Contrapoints or Blaire White to enter women's spaces, because Contrapoints and Blaire White can easily enter women's spaces any time they want. They are "stealth mode"; few people if any would take a second look. Blaire White can go into any women's washroom anywhere any time she wants to. She doesn't need wokies to fight for her on that front.

What trans rights actives are actually fighting for is for trans women that look like Charlotte Clymer or Morgane Oger or Jessica Yaniv or Darren Merager to enter women's spaces. What wokies want is for "women" who are obviously male to be allowed into women's spaces without objection.



 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2103 on: October 16, 2021, 01:26:21 am »
No, they're really not. And sayin so would be like me calling everyone on the left side of the fence a commie. It'd be stupid, in other words.
I'm sure most people don't think much about trans people or pretend trans people in womens showers or changing rooms until they encounter one. Or until they read about incidents like the above. Then it pisses them off.

And the thing which gets me about your position and that of others like you on this subject is you've got a situation where you've won just about 100% of what almost all legitimate trans people wanted. And you're **** it up by trying to push, push, push that extra, stupid, unreasonable bit that is going to **** mainstream people off and provoke a backlash. It is from **** like this that the likes of Trump are born as people get tired of this kind of garbage.

We're from different parts of the political sphere, but this is the truth.

A former member here said something along the lines of "if you tell people that only an Nazi would defend the border, people will vote for a Nazi."  It is the truth.  Most people support the right for trans or "gender diverse" people to live their lives as they choose free from violence or discrimination.  But that goodwill doesn't extend to putting dudes into women's sports or women's prisons.

 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2104 on: October 16, 2021, 01:49:44 am »
Are equal numbers of women fighting for the right to use men's rooms? Does that even matter?

Instead of installing multiple washrooms for crowds we could simply install more individual washrooms.
Change rooms will be a challenge but c'est la vie.

I love you, eyeball. What I love about you is that you are deeply, unabashedly leftist, yet not afraid to speak up against the current trend being embraced by leftists of the moment. That makes you a bit of a unicorn in today's political landscape. I hope there are more like you out there.

 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2105 on: October 16, 2021, 03:36:24 am »
Lesbian and bisexual women don't look at other women in the same way as hetro men do. They can appreciate when someone looks good but it's simply not the same. They have the same parts, after all.

okay, so this is actually a somewhat complicated subject and not something I feel like straight people from anywhere in the political spectrum really fully grasp.

For people who are same-sex attracted, locker room etiquette becomes a very anxious issue. People who are same-sex attracted are extremely anxious in situations where they might cause offense to others (and I suspect that trans people are the same, btw.)   Lesbians I have talked to online have talked about walking from the shower to their locker with their eyes on the tile grouting because they were afraid that they might accidentally "out" themselves if they looked too closely at another girl's body.

For me, it was never like that, because I was more or less convinced I was heterosexual. I felt no anxiety complimenting my team-mate on how nice their trim looked or how nice their abs looked or so on because it never occurred to me that they might think I was flirting with them. I assumed every girl paid attention to these things.

After several years of sexual relations with women outside my long-term relationship with my special guy, I began to suspect that I might be "bi". And after moving away from my special guy and having 10 years of exclusively same sex relationships, I started to realize that I'm not really "bi" either.

I recall reading a couple of columns that touched me at a personal level.   One was by Jo Bartosch, a well-known UK terf, who wrote that despite being in a long-term same-sex relationship and having no interest in going back to men, she is uncomfortable calling herself a lesbian because she never had to deal with the self-imposed stigma that lesbians inflict on themselves. She has no interest in being in a relationship with a man again, but she used to be and didn't  hate it. She didn't like calling herself a lesbian because she felt like she would be laying claim to an experience she never had. Lesbians were people who couldn't envision a life with a male partner, and Jo had been in a long term relationship with a male partner, so that couldn't be her, could it?

The other was by Brooklyn 99 actress Stephanie Beatriz. She is bi. She is engaged to marry a man. She wrote about how she isn't defined by her last sexual relationship, or her current one, or her next one. She wrote that choosing to be in a relationship with a male partner didn't mean she had become "straight". 

For me, "bi" would be a tricky label because it might suggest that I'd be open to things that I'm just not interested in right now. My partner Lindsey has been with men for most of her adult life;  she laughingly calls herself a "flexitarian" and suggests that she's down for whatever. I'm not either of those things, but I think the main premise is that putting a label on experiences and feelings to claim membership in a group is a dicey affair.

 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2106 on: October 16, 2021, 02:47:00 pm »
In any case, my response broadly supported your point,

Yeah, I guess maybe in general terms, you expressed support for the idea that creeps and predators shouldn't be able to just wander into the women's shower. But how can we know who should or should not be allowed in?

and brought up a concern I have - which is the assumption by so many that any non-biological-female who goes into women's spaces is lying about who they are and why they are there.  My response seemed reasonable to me; sorry it didn't meet your high standards. 

You've slipped the word "any" into your statement. But nobody is claiming that "any" male who enters women's spaces is there for sinister reasons.  But clearly it's a policy that's just begging to be exploited by creeps and predators.

We know that not all cisgender men are creeps and predators either. But we don't tolerate a cisgender man just walking into women's spaces even if that man says something reassuring like "it's alright ladies, I am not a rapist."  And, for the most part cisgender men understand that the creation of separate women's spaces isn't an accusation against "all" men, but rather an acknowledgement that women need protection from "some" men.

And to answer you purely rhetorical question:  Of course women can protest laws that allow for screw ups; we can all do that.  Your example isn't a particularly unusual incident: our legal system is full of such screwups. 

It's not a screw-up. No error was made. The law was being applied exactly as intended. This situation was the result of the law working as it was designed to. So people weren't protesting against a screw-up, they were protesting against a law that produced an unjust result.  And people like Black Dog (and a number of media outlets) vilified these women and accused them of staging a hoax for doing so.

And yet, when transgendered people behave as a mentally healthy person, nobody notices - not even the women whose space they're 'invading'.  And when some sick fck waves his junk around in front of women, that's used to define transsexuals as perverts just looking to get a glimpse, and lying to do so.


So again, no need to tell me "not all trans!"  I fully accept that.

Darren what's'name isn't the embodiment of transsexuals, despite all the hype about 'men pretending to be women so they can practice their perversion'.

It's unclear whether Darren Merager is actually trans at all. But in California, all he has to do is say "I am a woman" to hang out in the women's showers.


 -k
« Last Edit: October 16, 2021, 02:49:36 pm by kimmy »
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2107 on: October 16, 2021, 03:48:39 pm »
So the TERF argument is if you allow people to self-identify and use the facilities that correspond with their gender identity, you enable predators like this Meager person to have unfettered access to women's spaces to do whatever they want and there will be nothing anyone can do about it.

Except, as this incident shows (if the story is to be believed) bathrooms and change rooms are not the wild west where anything goes. There are norms and legal standards that govern behaviour, violations of which are actionable. So in a way, doesn't this story show how the system works to sanction bad actors?

I doubt a transwoman minding their own business and not actively flashing their genitals would be facing criminal charges, yet kimmy et al would treat those people in exactly the same way as your Yaniv's and Meagers despite no evidence that "creeps pretending to be women to wave their junk around" is a significant population of concern.

IOW: you can allow people to use the facilities that correspond with their gender identity AND enforce the legal and social norms that govern behaviour in those spaces.

Okay, so is the part where you (and left-leaning media outlets) slandered and vilified these women, is that part of "how the system works"?

A quick reminder, you're the one who brought this incident into this thread, under the premise of something like "lying transphobes created a hoax to demonize trans women" because you thought it was such a devastating takedown of TERFs.

 She complained to the spa staff, who did not help (as seen in the original video that went viral.)

 She was slandered and vilified by not just random wokies all over the internet, but also by allegedly respectable media sites (the Slate article you posted, as well as similar articles pushing the hoax angle produced by The Guardian, The Daily Beast, Insider, and more.)

 This was classic DARVO. DARVO is the template by which abusers gaslight their victims. Deny ("I didn't do anything!") Attack ("You're crazy!") Reverse Victim and Offender ("You made this up to hurt me!")  These women were victimized by a repeat sex offender, and they were made out to be the offender and their predator was presented as the real victim.

Slate and the others were active participants in DARVOing these women.  So were you.



So again: is this stuff all part of "how the system works"?   



After the way you and others attacked these women, I think it's hilarious that you're now presenting this as a great result for "the system".


Some time ago in this thread you told me that if someone misbehaves in women's spaces you can just go complain to the manager, regardless of their gender identity.  I replied that most women would rather just leave and not come back than risk the consequences of complaining about a trans person.  The way this case played out illustrates why most women would rather just avoid confrontation.

If that's "how the system works" then I have to assume that the main objective of "the system" is intimidating women into staying silent.


 -k
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Offline Dia

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2108 on: October 16, 2021, 04:22:47 pm »


You've slipped the word "any" into your statement. But nobody is claiming that "any" male who enters women's spaces is there for sinister reasons.  But clearly it's a policy that's just begging to be exploited by creeps and predators.



 -k

Some do, Kimmy. 

Quote

But in California, all he has to do is say "I am a woman" to hang out in the women's showers.


Is Darren Meager going to avoid prosecution for his actions because he said he was a woman to get in?  If he couldn't have gotten access that way, would there have been anything stopping him from shaving really closely, putting on some make up, a dress and walking in anyway?  Sure, people might have thought he was a remarkably manly looking women, but women do sometimes have a masculine look. 

I think Meager should be prosecuted for what he did, absolutely.  I don't think that all transgender people should have to prove themselves before they can enter places where there preferred gender would naturally go.   That would seem remarkably unfair to me, since even you admit that the majority of transgender people are not predators or perverts.
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2109 on: October 16, 2021, 05:20:56 pm »

What trans rights actives are actually fighting for is for trans women that look like Charlotte Clymer or Morgane Oger or Jessica Yaniv or Darren Merager to enter women's spaces. What wokies want is for "women" who are obviously male to be allowed into women's spaces without objection.


I am not familiar with Merager and I think Yaniv has issues beyond her gender identification, and I don't pretend to speak for all women here (ahem) but I would not have any issues whatsoever with women like Clymer and Oger using women's washrooms.  I think many women also don't, which is why we're seeing this movement along with trans allies (or wokies as you like to call them). 

I think the problem with your thinking is the practicality of it.  Who gets to define which trans women should use women's bathrooms and what is the criteria?  How do we enforce it?

I'm sincerely curious about this, if you're ok with some trans women using the bathroom but not others, what is your solution?

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2110 on: October 16, 2021, 05:26:03 pm »
For people who are same-sex attracted, locker room etiquette becomes a very anxious issue. People who are same-sex attracted are extremely anxious in situations where they might cause offense to others (and I suspect that trans people are the same, btw.)   Lesbians I have talked to online have talked about walking from the shower to their locker with their eyes on the tile grouting because they were afraid that they might accidentally "out" themselves if they looked too closely at another girl's body.


Some yes, others no.  I've shared my experiences in the past by lesbians who come on too strong, don't take no for an answer and made me feel as uncomfortable as many men have done.

Nevertheless, I think you and I are both projecting our own experiences here which is kind of irrelevant.  I think the bigger question here is... if enough people banded together and said we don't want lesbians in bathrooms because they could secretly be looking at us sexually, is that enough reason to ban them from using women's spaces? 




Offline The Cynic

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2111 on: October 16, 2021, 05:48:58 pm »
Some yes, others no.  I've shared my experiences in the past by lesbians who come on too strong, don't take no for an answer and made me feel as uncomfortable as many men have done.

Nevertheless, I think you and I are both projecting our own experiences here which is kind of irrelevant.  I think the bigger question here is... if enough people banded together and said we don't want lesbians in bathrooms because they could secretly be looking at us sexually, is that enough reason to ban them from using women's spaces?

Not to put too fine a point on it but lesbians don't have erections. They also aren't generally as big and strong as males. Nor is it always obvious someone even is a lesbian. You are trying to equate something like whites not wanting blacks in a locker room but this is not an issue of discrimination or dislike but fear and safety. Do lesbians have a long record of sexually assaulting and harassing straight women? Not that I've heard.

Not to mention the extreme discomfort most women have undressing in front of strange males or even being in the same room as a naked man they don't know.

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2112 on: October 16, 2021, 06:26:00 pm »
Not to put too fine a point on it but lesbians don't have erections. They also aren't generally as big and strong as males. Nor is it always obvious someone even is a lesbian. You are trying to equate something like whites not wanting blacks in a locker room but this is not an issue of discrimination or dislike but fear and safety. Do lesbians have a long record of sexually assaulting and harassing straight women? Not that I've heard.

Not to mention the extreme discomfort most women have undressing in front of strange males or even being in the same room as a naked man they don't know.


And which do you think causes more violence... trans women using men's washrooms or women's washrooms? 


Offline eyeball

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2113 on: October 16, 2021, 09:45:06 pm »
I love you, eyeball. What I love about you is that you are deeply, unabashedly leftist, yet not afraid to speak up against the current trend being embraced by leftists of the moment. That makes you a bit of a unicorn in today's political landscape. I hope there are more like you out there.

 -k

I just can't see how politicizing going to the bathroom can go anywhere but sideways. Where it leads is anyone's guess. Maybe the largest public washroom infrastructure project in history or maybe the Mother-of-all right-wing populist backlashs. But co/multi-gendered public washrooms? I doubt it.

I wish the real human rights issues LGBTQ people face were wrestled with as human rights issues on a more fundamental level so solutions actually enhance everyone's rights. Instead things have taken the road that forks towards special rights. I think I blame that on the inherent insincerity of political moral entrepreneurship. Take the assumed wokiness of Trudeau for example, it has no basis given the doubts over his commitment to feminism in his workplace and his non-record protecting vulnerable women in the military.
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Offline The Cynic

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2114 on: October 17, 2021, 11:22:02 am »

And which do you think causes more violence... trans women using men's washrooms or women's washrooms?

I don't believe washrooms are the issue as stalls guarantee a level of privacy. The issue is changing areas where women undress - including biological males.