Author Topic: Gender Culture  (Read 26962 times)

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Offline wilber

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2010 on: July 21, 2021, 04:03:24 pm »
Just maybe, women shouldn’t be lectured about their rights or told what acceptable conduct is in their restrooms.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2011 on: July 21, 2021, 08:23:46 pm »
I really see both sides of the issue here. 

I agree that it's bad etiquette to be looking at anyone who is naked in a change room and we all should mind our own business.  Seeing a **** should be no different than seeing anything else that makes us uncomfortable. 

I think the flip-side argument inevitably gets back to creeps misusing the rules, and given the perversion of many men to be peeping toms, flashers and voyeurs (something very much associated with the y chromosome, just like serial killing and ****), it's kinda warranted. 

It really comes down to the alternative.  It is ethical to ask trans women, the actual 99% who are not creeps in disguise, to go into the men's room? 

If it really just is being traumatized by seeing a ****, I think it's high time we get over it and accept it. 

If we automatically think everything with a **** has an ulterior motive, then maybe we need to stop hating men and only criminalize actual criminals.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2012 on: July 22, 2021, 12:02:35 am »
Kudos to you, BCC, for trying to elevate the level of discussion in this topic.

I really see both sides of the issue here. 

I agree that it's bad etiquette to be looking at anyone who is naked in a change room and we all should mind our own business.  Seeing a **** should be no different than seeing anything else that makes us uncomfortable. 

I think the flip-side argument inevitably gets back to creeps misusing the rules, and given the perversion of many men to be peeping toms, flashers and voyeurs (something very much associated with the y chromosome, just like serial killing and ****), it's kinda warranted. 

It really comes down to the alternative.  It is ethical to ask trans women, the actual 99% who are not creeps in disguise, to go into the men's room? 

How can you tell who is actually transgender and who is a creep in disguise?

There is no answer to that question.   We can't even agree on an answer to the question of who is actually transgender.  Some people believe that someone with actual diagnosed gender dysphoria is trans; other people believe that anybody who says "I am transgender" is transgender. In the view of trans activists, the statement "I am a woman" is the only requirement to get into a womens' changing room or shower.

That's one of the things that I find very frustrating about trans activism as it currently stands. It demands that I view Jazz Jennings (who apparently knew she was a girl in a boy's body as a young child) as being the same as Caitlyn Jenner (who didn't realize she was a woman in a man's body until age 65). It demands that I view Contrapoints or Blaire White (the super-feminine trans celebrities) as being the same as Ruby Eby (the stubble-faced goon from last page).  It demands that I view a male who has lived as a woman for many years as being the same as a male who declared that he is a woman 10 seconds ago.

I am undecided on the issue of whether I could consider some trans-women to be women.  But I completely reject the notion that I need to view any and every male who says "I am a woman" to be a woman.

If it really just is being traumatized by seeing a ****, I think it's high time we get over it and accept it. 

If we automatically think everything with a **** has an ulterior motive,

I don't think anybody is seriously arguing that everything with a dick has an ulterior motive. However, we know that there's no shortage of scrotum-havers who do.

And, I would also like to mention again, as I have before, that women deserve the right to privacy even if there's no imminent threat of harm.  I wouldn't pee while my dad or my brother were watching, even though I know they would never harm me. I wouldn't shower in a glass booth in Times Square, even though I'm sure nobody would harm me if I did.  I shouldn't need to demonstrate a threat of harm to justify my need for privacy from males.

then maybe we need to stop hating men and only criminalize actual criminals.

You know, and I know, and probably most of the men here know, that placing your faith in the basic goodness and harmlessness of male people will get you hurt.  Asking women to just trust males until after they've proved they're abusers is asking people to politely close the gate after the horses have left.  We have been trying to "educate" males to "be better" for millennia and we have been disappointed for millennia. Most are better, some non-zero and significant portion aren't.  Men say #NotAllMen, but there has always, always, always been #EnoughMen to ensure that #AllWomen need to be always wary.

The creation of female-only spaces is an advancement that has allowed women to participate fully in society in western countries. The absence of female-only spaces in many 3rd-world countries is a serious hindrance on women's ability to participate in society in those countries.  We in the west should be very reluctant to let women's spaces be turned into "gender-neutral" spaces.

 -k
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Offline eyeball

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2013 on: July 22, 2021, 12:45:05 am »
I really see both sides of the issue here.

It really comes down to the alternative.  It is ethical to ask trans women, the actual 99% who are not creeps in disguise, to go into the men's room?

The original two-sidedness to this issue, whether it's real or not, appears to have been settled and having chosen a path that says it is, the diversity of gendertypes seem to requires a diversity of alternatives. I've suggested that a greater diversity of public washroom and change rooms types be made available to the public.

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If it really just is being traumatized by seeing a ****, I think it's high time we get over it and accept it.

If we automatically think everything with a **** has an ulterior motive, then maybe we need to stop hating men and only criminalize actual criminals.
I think this hope and wish collides with the reality that our society is currently far to crippled with the critical mass of religious piety and moral entrepreneurship of the sort that's guaranteed to motivate millions of voters to stay traumatized for decades. That said, the voters most likely to be boiled mad by this also get boiling mad at public spending so perhaps the cost of installing who knows how many more types of bathrooms around the country will cool them down enough to realize how pricey it is to accommodate them.

I acknowledge this smacks a little of wishful thinking too but it is what it is.


Offline Nipples Von Graham

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2014 on: July 22, 2021, 11:52:56 am »
There's certain codes of conduct in change rooms: one is don't make a big display of your junk. Another is don't stare at other people's junk. If a trans person is changing and not doing anything untoward in the process and someone decides to ogle their parts, who's fault is that?

This doesn't really answer my questions though.  Obviously if trans women are granted the right to be allowed into women's changerooms, the right of women to be exposed to naked male genitalia is not upheld, and if trans women aren't allowed then their rights are infringed.  So we have a clear conflict of rights, which is what makes these kinds of issues so divisive.  Either way, someone is going to lose some rights.

I don't think someone like kimmy is automatically transphobic for simply standing up for her rights any more than a person is considered misogynist for standing up for trans women's rights.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2015 on: August 11, 2021, 05:14:26 pm »
This should be interesting…. Religious bigotry, and whether it is allowed in cases of employment,  is being put to the test before the courts. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/junia-joplin-trans-pastor-law-suit-baptist-church-1.6137180

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A Mississauga, Ont., pastor who was fired from a Baptist church after coming out as transgender has filed a lawsuit for wrongful dismissal, alleging her termination was spurred by discrimination.

Rev. Junia Joplin presented as male when she first took on the job of lead pastor at Lorne Park Baptist Church in 2014, and continued to do so until she came out to the congregation in a livestreamed sermon in June of last year.


Lorne Park Baptist Church said Wednesday that it went through a "process of attempting to discern God's will" after Joplin's announcement and did so in a "careful and thoughtful manner."

"In the end, the congregation voted to terminate her employment as lead pastor of the church, with the majority of the votes to terminate made for theological reasons," David Huctwith, chair of the church's executive council, said in a statement. "We offered her what we think was a fair severance."


The lawsuit, which seeks nearly $200,000 in damages, alleges the church breached the Human Rights Code, which prohibits discrimination in employment on the basis of gender identity, gender expression, sex and other grounds."

It argues that while the code allows religious organizations to give preference to those of a similar creed, that exemption only applies when creed is an occupational qualification, and it does not allow discrimination on the basis of gender identity or expression.

According to the church, they discerned “God’s will” about what should be done….  So maybe God’s will is on trial too?  I wonder if the will of God will be allowed to be entered into evidence…? 

Offline MH

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2016 on: August 12, 2021, 05:40:56 am »
IMO the court should decide with the church.

Freedom of religion means freedom to discriminate, against whomever the sect has decided falls lower on the holy hierarchy: women, gay folk, etc.

If you hate religion, look at it this way: this is going to make them highly unpopular.  It will hasten the inevitable removal of religion from protected groups.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2017 on: August 12, 2021, 10:54:10 am »
Freedom of religion means freedom to discriminate, against whomever the sect has decided falls lower on the holy hierarchy: women, gay folk, etc.

Why would that be a good thing?   What would happen if they weren’t allowed to do so?

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If you hate religion, look at it this way: this is going to make them highly unpopular.  It will hasten the inevitable removal of religion from protected groups.

Will it hasten their demise?  Or will it keep perpetuating hatred of the groups they don’t happen to like by enforcing their beliefs that it is god’s will to hate transgender folks?

Maybe the bigotry will stop sooner if the courts actually tell people they can’t discriminate.  I think we need to get rid of the last bastion for legalized bigotry.  No other group would be allowed to do this.  There’s no good reason for religion to do so.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2021, 11:12:07 am by the_squid »
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Offline MH

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2018 on: August 12, 2021, 11:58:06 am »
Why would that be a good thing?   What would happen if they weren’t allowed to do so?

I don't know if it's good or bad.  If they weren't allowed to do so then they would presumably have to hire people who are outside the religion, for example.

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Will it hasten their demise?  Or will it keep perpetuating hatred of the groups they don’t happen to like by enforcing their beliefs that it is god’s will to hate transgender folks?

Hmmm....seems like a loaded question eh ?

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Maybe the bigotry will stop sooner if the courts actually tell people they can’t discriminate.  I think we need to get rid of the last bastion for legalized bigotry.  No other group would be allowed to do this.  There’s no good reason for religion to do so.

You should just advocate for a constitutional change, which is the way to go. 

They would still be able to preach what they want though.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2019 on: August 12, 2021, 12:58:54 pm »
I don't know if it's good or bad.  If they weren't allowed to do so then they would presumably have to hire people who are outside the religion, for example.

Nope.  Clearly, there can still be requirements for a job. 

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Hmmm....seems like a loaded question eh ?

Is it?  I thought it was an honest question.  I guess if you can’t think of any tenable reasons for your position, then you might view it as “loaded”.

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You should just advocate for a constitutional change, which is the way to go. 

Except, we may not need a Constitutional change.  It may be that they can’t discriminate like this despite what they have gotten away with in the past.  We’ll see how the judge rules.

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They would still be able to preach what they want though.

OK.   You needed to throw a red herring in there?  LOL

I think they should be allowed to preach whatever they want.  Their free speech rights don’t go away. 
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Offline MH

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2020 on: August 12, 2021, 02:37:57 pm »
Nope.  Clearly, there can still be requirements for a job. 

Requirements ?  Like "Be Catholic" ?  Why is that a requirement and "Don't be gay" isn't ?

Is it?  I thought it was an honest question.  I guess if you can’t think of any tenable reasons for your position, then you might view it as “loaded”.

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Except, we may not need a Constitutional change.  It may be that they can’t discriminate like this despite what they have gotten away with in the past.  We’ll see how the judge rules.


Yes I think you are right.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2021 on: August 12, 2021, 03:37:12 pm »
Requirements ?  Like "Be Catholic" ?  Why is that a requirement and "Don't be gay" isn't ?

Because being gay wouldn’t hinder your ability to do the job.  You can be gay and be Catholic.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2022 on: August 12, 2021, 04:33:34 pm »
Hey remember this person who was supposed to smash the field at the Olympics?

First transgender person (a trans woman) will compete in Olympics, part of New Zealand team.  Will compete in weightlifting.  Hahaha what a joke.

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/transgender-weightlifter-hubbard-selected-for-tokyo-1.6073313

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Transgender weightlifter Laurel Hubbard finally got to compete at the Tokyo Olympics.

It didn't last long, but it was significant. Hubbard couldn't complete any of her first three lifts on Monday night, ruling her out of medal contention in the women's over-87-kilogram division that ultimately was won by China's Li Wenwen.

link

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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2023 on: August 13, 2021, 01:10:58 am »
Laurel Hubbard, the transgender woman weightlifter, bombed out spectacularly and didn't register a single successful lift. Stupid-people will say that Hubbard's failure proves that transwomen don't have an advantage.  Stupid-people will say that because they're stupid. 

Hey, just call me Kreskin! Who could have anticipated this coming?

Hey remember this person who was supposed to smash the field at the Olympics?

link

"the cheater didn't win, so cheating is okay" is a patently stupid argument. There's only two kinds of people who would say that. Stupid people would say that, and people who assume that their audience is stupid would say that.  Self identify as you wish, but I don't believe you're stupid, dawg.  Do you really believe anybody at this message board would be persuaded by such a stupid argument?



Hubbard's lifts in previous competitions indicate xee should have been a medal contender.  That xee bombed out in such dismal fashion doesn't change the argument.


Ultimately, 11 of the world's strongest women plus a mediocre middle-aged male gathered in Tokyo to compete. There could have been 12 of the world's strongest women. Two women who could have been there instead of Old Brother Hubbard:

Tracey Lambrechs of New Zealand could have represented her country at the Olympics.  When Hubbard decided xee wanted to compete in the women's 87+ kilo category, Lambrechs was told that her options were either to lose weight and compete at a lighter weight class, or retire.

Roviel Detenamo of the tiny South Pacific nation of Nauru could have been among just a handful of people to ever represent her country in the Olympics if the spot hadn't been allocated to a mediocre middle-aged man.

Imagine for a moment an athlete, perhaps a hockey player. He has some modest amount of success as a young man, makes it to the AHL, and scores some goals there. But he never makes it to the NHL, and at age 24 he hangs up the skates to move on with his life. Then, at age 39, he decides to give hockey another chance. And not only does he make the NHL, he becomes a star player, one of the league's best, an all-star player. And at age 43, an age when even the all time greats are retiring from the sport, he's still going strong and even gets chosen to play on the Olympic team!  Everybody would recognize that this is a completely ridiculous story, right? A Hollywood fantasy.  This is basically the plot of "Damn Yankees" (the middle-aged guy in that story had to make a deal with the devil to become a baseball star).  People would ask, how is this former minor-leaguer becoming a hockey superstar at age 39, when other players are in rapid decline?  Was this guy bitten by a radioactive spider? Is he wearing Kryptonite shorts?  It would be completely unbelievable.  And yet, that's the Laurel Hubbard story.  A weightlifter who was successful in New Zealand but never qualified for an international event, left the sport at 24, came out of retirement at age 39 and achieved international success overnight. It would be unbelievable, if you don't mention that he's competing against women now.   



 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2024 on: August 13, 2021, 01:16:57 am »
This should be interesting…. Religious bigotry, and whether it is allowed in cases of employment,  is being put to the test before the courts. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/junia-joplin-trans-pastor-law-suit-baptist-church-1.6137180

According to the church, they discerned “God’s will” about what should be done….  So maybe God’s will is on trial too?  I wonder if the will of God will be allowed to be entered into evidence…?

"We have accepted for millennia that religions may discriminate against women, because **** women amirite?  But discriminating against the transes is completely unacceptable! The courts must intervene at once!"

 -k
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