Author Topic: Gender Culture  (Read 16114 times)

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Offline wilber

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2010 on: July 21, 2021, 04:03:24 pm »
Just maybe, women shouldn’t be lectured about their rights or told what acceptable conduct is in their restrooms.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2011 on: July 21, 2021, 08:23:46 pm »
I really see both sides of the issue here. 

I agree that it's bad etiquette to be looking at anyone who is naked in a change room and we all should mind our own business.  Seeing a **** should be no different than seeing anything else that makes us uncomfortable. 

I think the flip-side argument inevitably gets back to creeps misusing the rules, and given the perversion of many men to be peeping toms, flashers and voyeurs (something very much associated with the y chromosome, just like serial killing and ****), it's kinda warranted. 

It really comes down to the alternative.  It is ethical to ask trans women, the actual 99% who are not creeps in disguise, to go into the men's room? 

If it really just is being traumatized by seeing a ****, I think it's high time we get over it and accept it. 

If we automatically think everything with a **** has an ulterior motive, then maybe we need to stop hating men and only criminalize actual criminals.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2012 on: July 22, 2021, 12:02:35 am »
Kudos to you, BCC, for trying to elevate the level of discussion in this topic.

I really see both sides of the issue here. 

I agree that it's bad etiquette to be looking at anyone who is naked in a change room and we all should mind our own business.  Seeing a **** should be no different than seeing anything else that makes us uncomfortable. 

I think the flip-side argument inevitably gets back to creeps misusing the rules, and given the perversion of many men to be peeping toms, flashers and voyeurs (something very much associated with the y chromosome, just like serial killing and ****), it's kinda warranted. 

It really comes down to the alternative.  It is ethical to ask trans women, the actual 99% who are not creeps in disguise, to go into the men's room? 

How can you tell who is actually transgender and who is a creep in disguise?

There is no answer to that question.   We can't even agree on an answer to the question of who is actually transgender.  Some people believe that someone with actual diagnosed gender dysphoria is trans; other people believe that anybody who says "I am transgender" is transgender. In the view of trans activists, the statement "I am a woman" is the only requirement to get into a womens' changing room or shower.

That's one of the things that I find very frustrating about trans activism as it currently stands. It demands that I view Jazz Jennings (who apparently knew she was a girl in a boy's body as a young child) as being the same as Caitlyn Jenner (who didn't realize she was a woman in a man's body until age 65). It demands that I view Contrapoints or Blaire White (the super-feminine trans celebrities) as being the same as Ruby Eby (the stubble-faced goon from last page).  It demands that I view a male who has lived as a woman for many years as being the same as a male who declared that he is a woman 10 seconds ago.

I am undecided on the issue of whether I could consider some trans-women to be women.  But I completely reject the notion that I need to view any and every male who says "I am a woman" to be a woman.

If it really just is being traumatized by seeing a ****, I think it's high time we get over it and accept it. 

If we automatically think everything with a **** has an ulterior motive,

I don't think anybody is seriously arguing that everything with a dick has an ulterior motive. However, we know that there's no shortage of scrotum-havers who do.

And, I would also like to mention again, as I have before, that women deserve the right to privacy even if there's no imminent threat of harm.  I wouldn't pee while my dad or my brother were watching, even though I know they would never harm me. I wouldn't shower in a glass booth in Times Square, even though I'm sure nobody would harm me if I did.  I shouldn't need to demonstrate a threat of harm to justify my need for privacy from males.

then maybe we need to stop hating men and only criminalize actual criminals.

You know, and I know, and probably most of the men here know, that placing your faith in the basic goodness and harmlessness of male people will get you hurt.  Asking women to just trust males until after they've proved they're abusers is asking people to politely close the gate after the horses have left.  We have been trying to "educate" males to "be better" for millennia and we have been disappointed for millennia. Most are better, some non-zero and significant portion aren't.  Men say #NotAllMen, but there has always, always, always been #EnoughMen to ensure that #AllWomen need to be always wary.

The creation of female-only spaces is an advancement that has allowed women to participate fully in society in western countries. The absence of female-only spaces in many 3rd-world countries is a serious hindrance on women's ability to participate in society in those countries.  We in the west should be very reluctant to let women's spaces be turned into "gender-neutral" spaces.

 -k
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Offline eyeball

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2013 on: July 22, 2021, 12:45:05 am »
I really see both sides of the issue here.

It really comes down to the alternative.  It is ethical to ask trans women, the actual 99% who are not creeps in disguise, to go into the men's room?

The original two-sidedness to this issue, whether it's real or not, appears to have been settled and having chosen a path that says it is, the diversity of gendertypes seem to requires a diversity of alternatives. I've suggested that a greater diversity of public washroom and change rooms types be made available to the public.

Quote
If it really just is being traumatized by seeing a ****, I think it's high time we get over it and accept it.

If we automatically think everything with a **** has an ulterior motive, then maybe we need to stop hating men and only criminalize actual criminals.
I think this hope and wish collides with the reality that our society is currently far to crippled with the critical mass of religious piety and moral entrepreneurship of the sort that's guaranteed to motivate millions of voters to stay traumatized for decades. That said, the voters most likely to be boiled mad by this also get boiling mad at public spending so perhaps the cost of installing who knows how many more types of bathrooms around the country will cool them down enough to realize how pricey it is to accommodate them.

I acknowledge this smacks a little of wishful thinking too but it is what it is.


Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #2014 on: July 22, 2021, 11:52:56 am »
There's certain codes of conduct in change rooms: one is don't make a big display of your junk. Another is don't stare at other people's junk. If a trans person is changing and not doing anything untoward in the process and someone decides to ogle their parts, who's fault is that?

This doesn't really answer my questions though.  Obviously if trans women are granted the right to be allowed into women's changerooms, the right of women to be exposed to naked male genitalia is not upheld, and if trans women aren't allowed then their rights are infringed.  So we have a clear conflict of rights, which is what makes these kinds of issues so divisive.  Either way, someone is going to lose some rights.

I don't think someone like kimmy is automatically transphobic for simply standing up for her rights any more than a person is considered misogynist for standing up for trans women's rights.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.