Author Topic: Gender Culture  (Read 15698 times)

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Offline bcsapper

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1950 on: June 10, 2021, 09:15:56 pm »
It sounds like you haven't been following the case.

Just what I read in the Guardian.  And it was before breakfast, so if I missed something, I was probably just thinking about my eggs.
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Offline MH

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1951 on: June 11, 2021, 08:21:46 am »
Just what I read in the Guardian.  And it was before breakfast, so if I missed something, I was probably just thinking about my eggs.

The deal is....

The woman made anti-trans comments online (in person too maybe ?) and her contract was not renewed.  She sent it for judicial review and the decision was initially affirmed, and now was turned over with the comment that her speech is protected unless it's akin to "Naziism and totalitarianism".

So "free speech" as such was never in question, it was the consequences of her stating her opinion.

What it means now is that apparently you can state "Women should speak only when spoken to" in the workplace and not get fired, but if you say "I think that China's government has been effective against Climate Change" you can be fired.

....

I should have been a lawyer.  Really really should have.

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1952 on: June 11, 2021, 08:47:16 am »
The deal is....

The woman made anti-trans comments online (in person too maybe ?) and her contract was not renewed.  She sent it for judicial review and the decision was initially affirmed, and now was turned over with the comment that her speech is protected unless it's akin to "Naziism and totalitarianism".

So "free speech" as such was never in question, it was the consequences of her stating her opinion.

What it means now is that apparently you can state "Women should speak only when spoken to" in the workplace and not get fired, but if you say "I think that China's government has been effective against Climate Change" you can be fired.

....

I should have been a lawyer.  Really really should have.

Yeah, restrictions on free speech, as we've discussed in the past, are the prerogative of governments.  Did she make the comments in the workplace as well?  What if someone says "Women should speak only when spoken to" online?  Fire them?

Was the appeal panel wrong to reinstate her?

Why would you get fired for saying that about China?  I should imagine one could say a lot worse about China without risking any kind of sanction at all.
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Offline MH

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1953 on: June 11, 2021, 09:01:00 am »
Yeah, restrictions on free speech, as we've discussed in the past, are the prerogative of governments.  Did she make the comments in the workplace as well?  What if someone says "Women should speak only when spoken to" online?  Fire them?

Was the appeal panel wrong to reinstate her?

Why would you get fired for saying that about China?  I should imagine one could say a lot worse about China without risking any kind of sanction at all.

I believe she made them online but also in context of her team mates and possibly in the workplace.

If you support totalitarianism than you can be fired.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1954 on: June 11, 2021, 10:49:57 am »
Yeah, I wouldn't want anyone to harass anyone.  I don't mind them offending people, though.

I think an employer should have the right to fire someone who goes around "offending" people if it makes them look bad.

Offline MH

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1955 on: June 11, 2021, 10:51:29 am »
I think an employer should have the right to fire someone who goes around "offending" people if it makes them look bad.

I'm on your side, but it's a hard line to draw.  How do you justify degree of offense and ensure that this isn't abused ?

Anyway, the new line isn't much better ... especially if you are partial to totalitarian Nazi views.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1956 on: June 11, 2021, 12:32:00 pm »
No, that's been around for a while. Same as most places, I guess.

And "TERF doesn't get her contract re-upped for making her employer look bad" is the straw that broker the camel's back for you?

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1957 on: June 11, 2021, 12:33:01 pm »
I'm on your side, but it's a hard line to draw.  How do you justify degree of offense and ensure that this isn't abused ?

Anyway, the new line isn't much better ... especially if you are partial to totalitarian Nazi views.

If right wing people don't want people getting fired for absurd or arbitrary reasons, they should support unions.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1958 on: June 11, 2021, 12:34:27 pm »
Is this guy actually Trans or does he just identify?

https://www.abbynews.com/news/suspect-charged-in-relation-to-thwarted-armed-robbery-at-abbotsford-bank/

What I don't get was after he was caught after escaping custody with the help of armed accomplices, he was given a conditional sentence and probation. What was the logic behind that, if we put you in jail  you will just try and escape again so we might as well turn you loose?
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline MH

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1959 on: June 11, 2021, 01:33:31 pm »
If right wing people don't want people getting fired for absurd or arbitrary reasons, they should support unions.

That's totalitarianism though..... aaaaaaand you just got fired ;)

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1960 on: June 11, 2021, 07:46:04 pm »
And "TERF doesn't get her contract re-upped for making her employer look bad" is the straw that broker the camel's back for you?

Different issues.  It's a lot easier to not go all foamy about someone's opinion than it is to fix a broken health care system.  Cheaper too.
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Offline bcsapper

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1961 on: June 11, 2021, 07:47:10 pm »
I think an employer should have the right to fire someone who goes around "offending" people if it makes them look bad.

They do.  That's what appeals and tribunals and such are for.  To look at the case and see if it was justified.
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Offline bcsapper

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1962 on: June 11, 2021, 07:49:27 pm »
I believe she made them online but also in context of her team mates and possibly in the workplace.

If you support totalitarianism than you can be fired.

I think you would probably be reinstated on appeal given your level of support.

Now, if you were to deny the existence of the concentration camps I would still support you, but the appeals tribunal might not.
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Offline bcsapper

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1963 on: June 11, 2021, 07:51:52 pm »
If right wing people don't want people getting fired for absurd or arbitrary reasons, they should support unions.

I don't know about right wing people, but in my experience, unions get people fired for at least one pretty dumb reason.  Seniority, or lack thereof.

I've tried both.  I prefer a non union employer if they are a good employer.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 08:20:43 pm by bcsapper »
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1964 on: June 12, 2021, 02:43:50 pm »
lol:

Quote
    Forstater said of the judgment: “It doesn’t mean the freedom to harass others. That was never what my case was about.

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    Later that month, in a long series of tweets, [Forstater] repeatedly misgendered Credit Suisse senior director Pips Bunce, who identifies as gender fluid, referring to her as "a man who likes to express himself part of the week by wearing a dress,” "a part-time cross dresser" and "a white man who likes to dress in women’s clothes.” 

Forstater doesn't work with Bunce. She wasn't interacting with Bunce. She's never met Bunce.  She was responding to a Financial Times article that listed Bunce among their "Top 100 Female Executives" in 2018.


Some of the tweets in question:

https://twitter.com/MForstater/status/1044495561481703424

https://twitter.com/MForstater/status/1044839436054351872

Quote
I've got a Q for my male twitter friends who have pledged not to appear on all male panels - if u were invited on a panel w Pip Bunce - one of FT's top 100 female champions of women in biz & another guy would u say yes or call the organisers & say sorry i don't do #manels?

Quote
Bunce does not 'masquerade as female' he is a man who likes to express himself part of the week by wearing a dress. I have no problem with men wearing dresses, but we don't need to confuse acting in a stereotypically feminine manner with being a woman!
https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/mistranslated-i-split-my-time-as-pippa-and-philip-20171002

If discussing this absurd situation amounts to harassing Bunce, then everybody on this message board is guilty of harassing somebody, and we should all just turn ourselves in to the thought police right now.

The situation is about as ridiculous as the "Top Movies Directed By Women" lists that always rank The Matrix highly even though the Wachowskis made The Matrix about 20 years before they "discovered they were women".

And yeah, if your gender identity changes with your mood, it's not a gender identity, it's just a mood. If being a woman for you means wearing a woman costume to work a couple of times a week, you're not a woman.  Life as a woman, in any society at any time in history, is not something that you can choose as a part-time experience. I doubt that Pips has ever experienced what it's really like to actually be treated as a woman, I think he's probably only had the experience of being treated as a weirdo by subordinates who feel obligated to humor him.

Frankly Phillip/Pippa Bunce is nonsense that would be right at home in a Monty Python skit. It's at a point where reality is too ridiculous for Titania McGrath to parody; we've more or less reached Poe's Law saturation on gender identity nonsense. Pips Bunce is the Emperor's New Clothes story for our time, except that at the punchline of the story is that the little boy who told the truth gets marched in front of a Human Rights Tribunal.


 -k
Masked for your safety.