Author Topic: Gender Culture  (Read 56154 times)

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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1560 on: January 16, 2021, 07:36:43 pm »
Spoken like someone who didn’t read my post...

Let’s get real...   men are much more dangerous to women, statistically speaking, than other women.

Now you're using safety and comfort interchangeably.  What does 'oggling' have to do with safety? 

And clearly I did read your post:

Doesn’t have to be a predator....   I think women should be able to feel safe from being ogled  by creepy dudes in washrooms.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1561 on: January 16, 2021, 07:42:29 pm »
Now you're using safety and comfort interchangeably.  What does 'oggling' have to do with safety? 

And clearly I did read your post:

I said “feel safe”.  = safety.

And I’m pretty sure that women are also made to feel uncomfortable by men a hell of a lot more than they are by women as well anyway.
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1562 on: January 16, 2021, 07:50:00 pm »
I said “feel safe”.  = safety.

And I’m pretty sure that women are also made to feel uncomfortable by men a hell of a lot more than they are by women as well anyway.


Nobody ever got hurt from being oggled, it's only unsafe if the oggling becomes something else.

This is where you (and Kimmy) are conflating safety with comfort.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1563 on: January 17, 2021, 01:43:45 pm »
The issue isn't that Oger is "ugly" or "insufficiently femme-y".   The issue is that she is OBVIOUSLY MALE.   Regardless how much performative femininity she does (and it's a lot, as you can see in her photos) she will continue to be obviously male. As are many (and possibly most) trans women.

You already said the quiet part out loud when you picked a photo of ContraPoints to illustrate why women shouldn't be alarmed about trans women in female spaces.    Do the same exercise again but with Oger or Eddie Izzard or Charlotte Clymer.   Unless someone recognizes her as Actual Celebrity Trans Woman Eddie Izzard, how is someone supposed to know if they've just stepped into a washroom with a trans woman or with a crazy male person with lipstick?

 -k

How someone looks has no bearing on whether they pose a safety risk or not? You're conflating "discomfort with someone who doesn't look feminine enough" with a threat to safety.

When you say " I's not whether women have the right to know they're in the presence of a trans individual they can't detect, it's whether they have the right to object when some obviously male person wanders in" you're acknowledging that the issue is one of perception based on looks and not the probability of harm.


You checked her twitter to see if trans people are all she talks about?  But what if she posts her serious academic work on Tik-Tok or Facebook??



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A lot of people who have found the TERF community are there because they're sick of gender-theory bullshit, of course. But a lot of people there are talking about stuff that doesn't relate to trans stuff. The RF part, rather than the TE part.  The TERFs are talking about sex work, p0rn, depictions of women in media and entertainment, and other things that used to be the domain of mainstream feminism before everything went woke.  Since encountering the TERFs I have thought a lot about my views on p0rn and sex work in particular.

Also, you seem to have this idea that perhaps I was just minding my business and then read a Quillette article one day and BAM instant transphobia.  That's not the case.   As I mentioned early in this thread, I was all on board the trans rights train back when it was "we just need a place to pee".   I had never even heard of TERFs until Michael informed us in this thread that his woke friends were "CANCELLING!" Meghan Murphy because she's "a TERF".  There has been a long series of things that made me break with the crowd on this issue. The very first post in this thread... that women are expected to shower with pen1s-people without complaint.  Trans activists like Rachel V McKinnon (now "Veronica Ivy") demanding trans women be allowed into women's sports (Veronica's obnoxious personality has probably turned more people against the trans rights agenda than any number of Quillette articles.)  The "cotton ceiling" stuff-- the guilt and shaming and intimidation directed towards lesbians that don't want "girldick" in their sex lives.  A few years ago when I was single I went on PlentyOfFish (or Plenty Offish as I now think of it) and was contacted by a few non-passing "transbians" and thought to myself "oh, look, crazy people, how cute."  But then later I found out that you're actually a Bad Person if you aren't interested in transbians.  I think that was probably what sent me off into the wilderness... I was like "is this for real?"  And I think that was probably where I came into first-hand contact with the TERFs.  And that's a pretty common theme... most of the people who've found the TERF Dark Web have some story that starts with "I used to be an open-minded liberal person until..."

When 99.9% of this stuff has no bearing or impact on the world at large, it's impossible to see terfs as anything buts an obsessive subculture with a victim fetish, the kind of people who elevate Tumblr posts into the next great existential threat to civilization. But hey at least they offer community, but then so does QAnon.

Easy for you to say. That's a course of action that can get you branded as a TERF, get you doxxed and threatened, even get people contacting your employer to demand you be fired. Given a choice between that vs just not going back there again, most sane people will just not go back.

If you're more concerned about being called transphobic than you are about your personal safety, you're probablynot all that concerned about your safety.

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And if a customer does complain, what's a business supposed to do?  Post #1 in this thread talks about a business that tried to respond to concerns from female customers about pen1s-people naked in their spaces, and look at the trouble they got into as a result.

The purpose of a witch-hunt isn't to burn one witch, it's to scare everyone else into compliance. That goes for both women who'd complain about shlongs in their showers, and businesses considering how to respond to those complaints.

I didn't see anything indicating they changed their policy on genitals so it doesn't seem like the trans witch hunters are very effective.

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No serious person is claiming that all trans people are creeps and predators.  People are saying that on-demand gender self-ID is an idea tailor-made to be exploited by creeps and predators.

And because of that, your solution is to discriminate against all trans people, so you can see the problem

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1564 on: January 19, 2021, 02:10:52 am »
BD asked a good question and you didn't really address it in this response.

Genuinely curious here, are you concerned about the 'safety' or is it merely about being 'uncomfortable' with transwomen in the bathrooms?

Both.

I feel that if the bar to entry to women's spaces is set so low that any male can wander in, then the worst kinds of men will exploit that. And I disagree with the notion that unless a physical assault occurs, no harm has been done.  Women have the right to privacy and dignity.

As for "uncomfortable", I don't want washrooms and showers and changing rooms to be added to the list of places where women need to be wary of men. That list is too long already.  I don't like the advice that "women will just have to get over our discomfort" because there's good reasons for being uncomfortable and because I don't like that the emotional labor for all of these changes always falls on women.


Personally,  if I wander into the women's washroom and there's a male there, I'm not going to confront him, but I'm also not going to get in a stall while he's there.  I'll wash my hands, fix my hair, look for the eyelash in my eye, check my text messages, until he leaves. If he hasn't left by the time I've done a couple of those things, then I'm leaving because it's starting to look like he's just hanging around.  If I wander into the showers or the changing room and there's a male there, I'm walking right past. I'll go home with my wet swimsuit under my clothes if I have to.


 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1565 on: January 19, 2021, 02:46:03 am »
How someone looks has no bearing on whether they pose a safety risk or not? You're conflating "discomfort with someone who doesn't look feminine enough" with a threat to safety.

When you say " I's not whether women have the right to know they're in the presence of a trans individual they can't detect, it's whether they have the right to object when some obviously male person wanders in" you're acknowledging that the issue is one of perception based on looks and not the probability of harm.

If some modest number of trans women can "stealth" their way through women's spaces, that's one thing. Few male people (especially those who aren't highly dedicated) are going to be able to do that. Creepy Joe down the street isn't going to be able to pull off a Blaire White no matter how much lipstick he buys.  It's still a women's space even if Blaire White was born male.

But if the bar gets set so low that any male can enter without objection, then there isn't actually any such thing as women's spaces anymore.  That's a negative for women.

When 99.9% of this stuff has no bearing or impact on the world at large, it's impossible to see terfs as anything buts an obsessive subculture with a victim fetish, the kind of people who elevate Tumblr posts into the next great existential threat to civilization. But hey at least they offer community, but then so does QAnon.

You said TERFs only care about trans stuff, I told you they don't. Now you say that TERFs only care about unimportant stuff and Tumblr posts, and that isn't true either. At this point it's starting to feel like arguing with an 8 year old.

If you're more concerned about being called transphobic than you are about your personal safety, you're probablynot all that concerned about your safety.

You asked why women don't complain about creeps.  Were you suggesting they file these complaints while they're in the shower with creeps?  Obviously she gets herself out of that situation as quickly and safely as possible.  We were talking about what she does AFTER that.

And once her immediate safety is taken care of, she has to decide what to do next.  And yeah: between engaging in a likely futile and potentially dangerous attempt to "help weed out creeps" or taking her business elsewhere, it's an easy choice.

I didn't see anything indicating they changed their policy on genitals so it doesn't seem like the trans witch hunters are very effective.

My recollection is that the Body Blitz spa changed their policy to allow trans women in, and also to change their clothing-optional policy to a bottoms mandatory policy.

The exact same battle was fought this past week in Australia at the McIver Ladies Baths, soon to be the McIver Are Dongs Welcome Baths.

And because of that, your solution is to discriminate against all trans people, so you can see the problem

We discriminate against men too. Most men aren't creeps or predators, but we don't let men into women's spaces either.  Most men seem to understand that this discrimination is for women's benefit and don't take it as a personal slight.

 -k
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1566 on: January 19, 2021, 10:58:28 am »
If some modest number of trans women can "stealth" their way through women's spaces, that's one thing. Few male people (especially those who aren't highly dedicated) are going to be able to do that. Creepy Joe down the street isn't going to be able to pull off a Blaire White no matter how much lipstick he buys.  It's still a women's space even if Blaire White was born male.

But if the bar gets set so low that any male can enter without objection, then there isn't actually any such thing as women's spaces anymore.  That's a negative for women.

And how do you police that? What it comes down to is you think someone who looks insufficiently feminine should be denied access to women's spaces (somehow, since the enforcement mechanism isn't exactly clear). So less an objection to trans people per se as trans people not blessed with the ability to pass (oh and also butch lesbians. Sorry KD Lang, you're SOL.)

Butch lesbian opens up about ‘increasing harassment’ she faces when she uses public toilets


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You said TERFs only care about trans stuff, I told you they don't. Now you say that TERFs only care about unimportant stuff and Tumblr posts, and that isn't true either. At this point it's starting to feel like arguing with an 8 year old.

No I stand by the fact that TERFS in the main care about trans stuff above all else: that's why they're TERFS. The fact they have other socially conservative views doesn't make your point any stronger. Also the fact that most of the stuff you listed is exactly as I described doesn't make TERFs look any less like weird grievance collectors obsessed with their own victimhood.

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You asked why women don't complain about creeps.  Were you suggesting they file these complaints while they're in the shower with creeps? Obviously she gets herself out of that situation as quickly and safely as possible.  We were talking about what she does AFTER that.

And once her immediate safety is taken care of, she has to decide what to do next.  And yeah: between engaging in a likely futile and potentially dangerous attempt to "help weed out creeps" or taking her business elsewhere, it's an easy choice.

What the **** are you even talking about? I never suggested they take immediate action, but if someone is making unwanted sexual advances or engaging in behaviour that makes one feel unsafe, then that person should be reported as soon as possible. But it's weird you think it's better to discriminate against any non creep than just talk to the manager.

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My recollection is that the Body Blitz spa changed their policy to allow trans women in, and also to change their clothing-optional policy to a bottoms mandatory policy.

The exact same battle was fought this past week in Australia at the McIver Ladies Baths, soon to be the McIver Are Dongs Welcome Baths.

That sounds like a solution that works for everyone but i'm sure you have a problem with that too.

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We discriminate against men too. Most men aren't creeps or predators, but we don't let men into women's spaces either.  Most men seem to understand that this discrimination is for women's benefit and don't take it as a personal slight.

Yes because most men aren't transwomen? The clear thread running through all of your TERF arguments is that you think cis women are a class deserving of greater protections than transwomen, who are, to you, simply men in dresses not entitled to any particular consideration.

« Last Edit: January 19, 2021, 04:55:00 pm by Black Dog »
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1567 on: January 26, 2021, 12:50:45 am »
And how do you police that? What it comes down to is you think someone who looks insufficiently feminine should be denied access to women's spaces (somehow, since the enforcement mechanism isn't exactly clear). So less an objection to trans people per se as trans people not blessed with the ability to pass (oh and also butch lesbians. Sorry KD Lang, you're SOL.)

Butch lesbian opens up about ‘increasing harassment’ she faces when she uses public toilets

You kind of answered your own question there:  the only thing keeping Creepy Joe from wandering into the women's restroom any time he feels like is the fear of being confronted by women who don't believe he belongs there.  So while that might suck for Eloise, thank goodness that there are still cranky old women who haven't heard that women's washrooms and changing rooms are dongs-welcome spaces.  Stories like this one (I've seen similar stories where it's trans women being yelled at, or Eddie Izzard being yelled at) are intended to send the message that it's wrong for women to question the presence of anyone in women's spaces. And if that becomes the norm then they're not women's spaces anymore, they're just spaces. 

Men's spaces will continue to be single-sex, of course.

No I stand by the fact that TERFS in the main care about trans stuff above all else: that's why they're TERFS. The fact they have other socially conservative views doesn't make your point any stronger. Also the fact that most of the stuff you listed is exactly as I described doesn't make TERFs look any less like weird grievance collectors obsessed with their own victimhood.

What's wrong with having conservative views about **** and sex work? Why have progressives become so enamored of the idea that **** and sex-work are "empowering" for women?

What the **** are you even talking about? I never suggested they take immediate action, but if someone is making unwanted sexual advances or engaging in behaviour that makes one feel unsafe, then that person should be reported as soon as possible. But it's weird you think it's better to discriminate against any non creep than just talk to the manager.

On the one hand you speak in favor of this notion that cis women are the bad-guys for complaining about the presence of males in "women's" spaces, but on the other hand you're perplexed about why women would be reluctant to complain about an incident?  Really? Really?

That sounds like a solution that works for everyone but i'm sure you have a problem with that too.

To me a solution that works for everyone would be that the trans women take their business to establishments where trans women are welcomed, and Body Blitz continue its existing policy. Instead, the clothing-optional space ceased to exist. It's similar to the Vancouver **** Relief women's shelter controversy: it wasn't sufficient for trans activists that several trans-inclusive shelters exist in Vancouver, their goal continues to be that the only women's shelter in Vancouver exclusively for cis women be either opened to trans women or closed for good.

Yes because most men aren't transwomen? The clear thread running through all of your TERF arguments is that you think cis women are a class deserving of greater protections than transwomen,

They are, and it's absurd to me that this is even a controversial thing to say at this point in time.

who are, to you, simply men in dresses not entitled to any particular consideration.

Is it possible that some of them are, in fact, simply men in dresses?  One of the things that I find tough to swallow about trans ideology is that it insists we view all trans people as being equally valid.  It doesn't matter if the person became trans at age 5 or age 65.  It doesn't matter if the person began to identify as a woman 5 years ago or 5 minutes ago. It doesn't matter if the person has undergone medical transition or if they still walk around looking entirely male.


 -k
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1568 on: January 26, 2021, 10:10:44 am »
You kind of answered your own question there:  the only thing keeping Creepy Joe from wandering into the women's restroom any time he feels like is the fear of being confronted by women who don't believe he belongs there.  So while that might suck for Eloise, thank goodness that there are still cranky old women who haven't heard that women's washrooms and changing rooms are dongs-welcome spaces.  Stories like this one (I've seen similar stories where it's trans women being yelled at, or Eddie Izzard being yelled at) are intended to send the message that it's wrong for women to question the presence of anyone in women's spaces. And if that becomes the norm then they're not women's spaces anymore, they're just spaces.

Your policing method is "yelling at any person you deem insufficiently feminine-looking, whether they are trans or not" and if they are actually natal women, oh well, too bad, they should just femme it up. So much for gender stereotypes being bad things that only the brave TERFs are fighting against.

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Men's spaces will continue to be single-sex, of course.

Right because transmen don't currently use men's spaces?

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What's wrong with having conservative views about **** and sex work? Why have progressives become so enamored of the idea that **** and sex-work are "empowering" for women?

Nothing, necessarily, just another example of the diminishing space between the so-called lefty TERF/SWERF and the so-con right.

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On the one hand you speak in favor of this notion that cis women are the bad-guys for complaining about the presence of males in "women's" spaces, but on the other hand you're perplexed about why women would be reluctant to complain about an incident?  Really? Really?

Because I thought the issue is behaviour, not simply someone's existence. At least that's what you led me to believe until the sudden shift in tack a few posts back when suddenly it became a problem of insufficiently female-looking people creeping you out by their mere presence.

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To me a solution that works for everyone would be that the trans women take their business to establishments where trans women are welcomed, and Body Blitz continue its existing policy. Instead, the clothing-optional space ceased to exist. It's similar to the Vancouver **** Relief women's shelter controversy: it wasn't sufficient for trans activists that several trans-inclusive shelters exist in Vancouver, their goal continues to be that the only women's shelter in Vancouver exclusively for cis women be either opened to trans women or closed for good.

Ah yes, that famously huge market presence.

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They are, and it's absurd to me that this is even a controversial thing to say at this point in time.

Mask off.

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Is it possible that some of them are, in fact, simply men in dresses?  One of the things that I find tough to swallow about trans ideology is that it insists we view all trans people as being equally valid.  It doesn't matter if the person became trans at age 5 or age 65.  It doesn't matter if the person began to identify as a woman 5 years ago or 5 minutes ago. It doesn't matter if the person has undergone medical transition or if they still walk around looking entirely male.

What's the alternative? Assume everyone is a creep who just wants to perv out in women's bathrooms? Interrogate every transperson about their history of gender dysphoria before you let them pee? oh wait: it's "force them into situations where their own safety could be compromised because who really gives a ****."

Anyway at this point I think I'm just going to walk away from this topic because it's pretty clear this is not going anywhere.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2021, 10:59:31 am by Black Dog »

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1569 on: January 27, 2021, 11:43:05 am »
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/docproject/the-teens-are-alright-1.5877661/this-teen-was-a-celebrated-ringette-goalie-in-quebec-until-the-league-learned-he-was-transgender-1.5877666

This person got the boot off the women’s ringette team for identifying as a male.  They are biologically female....

  I guess the league is more progressive than people want them to be?  What happens when a transgender female, who is a biological male, signs up for the league?  I guess, based on kicking this person out, they would welcome the biological male, who identifies now as female?

As an aside....  I had no idea ringette on ice was even a sport....   why not just play hockey???
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 11:44:48 am by the_squid »
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Offline wilber

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1570 on: January 27, 2021, 12:00:29 pm »
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/docproject/the-teens-are-alright-1.5877661/this-teen-was-a-celebrated-ringette-goalie-in-quebec-until-the-league-learned-he-was-transgender-1.5877666

This person got the boot off the women’s ringette team for identifying as a male.  They are biologically female....

  I guess the league is more progressive than people want them to be?  What happens when a transgender female, who is a biological male, signs up for the league?  I guess, based on kicking this person out, they would welcome the biological male, who identifies now as female?

As an aside....  I had no idea ringette on ice was even a sport....   why not just play hockey???

Good question, I would think a male identifying as female would be a bigger problem for the league.
Maybe they are just saying they don't recognize the concept of gender identity period when it comes to sport.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1571 on: January 27, 2021, 12:27:46 pm »
Good question, I would think a male identifying as female would be a bigger problem for the league.
Maybe they are just saying they don't recognize the concept of gender identity period when it comes to sport.

I would think that the issue in any sport should be fairness to the athletes.  I can’t see how allowing the person in the article to play on a women’s team could possibly be negative in terms of fairness.

A biological male who is now a woman, on the other hand, would raise fairness concerns.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1572 on: January 28, 2021, 12:26:20 am »
Your policing method is "yelling at any person you deem insufficiently feminine-looking, whether they are trans or not" and if they are actually natal women, oh well, too bad, they should just femme it up. So much for gender stereotypes being bad things that only the brave TERFs are fighting against.

It is what it is. Despite what Eloise would have you believe, I doubt that she would have been more welcome in women's spaces in 2000 or 1990 or 1980 than in 2020, because this push to make observably male people welcome in women's private spaces is a very new thing. The only thing preserving female spaces as females spaces is the social norm, and the only thing upholding that social norm is that people speak out when it is violated. You'd have people not speak out when they perceive that social norm violate, in which case the only thing left preserving women's spaces is an honor system.  Honor systems are without value, because the only people who respect an honor system are people with honor.  The people an honor system fails to keep out are the exact people who the system is supposed to protect against. So you can see the dilemma.

What you (and trans rights activists and other boosters and supporters) are advocating for is for women to never question the presence of male individuals in sex-segregated spaces. You can feign concern for Eloise and ContraPoints and other sympathetic individuals, but that is what this boils down to. You want women to meekly accept male people individuals in private spaces without question. That's the indisputable outcome of what you're advocating for.  And I can't accept that as anything except for a burden being placed upon women.

The point of your Eloise article (or the Eddie Izzard article, or any number of other articles chiding women for being fearful of men in their spaces) is that women need to put aside their own feelings for some alleged greater good.  Which is pretty much the entire history of the human race, so perhaps you can understand why I don't see this as being as "progressive" as progressives seem to think it is.

Right because transmen don't currently use men's spaces?

Do they?

I never hear about trans men demanding to be put in men's prisons. I recall a trans man protester from Portland who wanted to be in the women's jails rather than the men's, he didn't think he would be safe in confinement with cis men.

I never hear of trans men demanding access to men's sports. The only trans man I'm aware of who is remotely competitive in men's sports is female-at-birth distance runner Chris Mosier. (Not a coincidence that Mosier is in distance running, one of the few sports where the top athletes are slim and slightly muscular rather than large and powerful.)

I'm sure that you'd point to Buck Angel as a trans man who would walk into a men's restroom without anybody taking a second glance; I'd say that like Blaire White that's an issue of being highly passing rather than an indication of widespread comfort among trans men in male spaces. I suspect that trans men who aren't highly passing are scared shitless of being in single-sex spaces with cis men.

Nothing, necessarily, just another example of the diminishing space between the so-called lefty TERF/SWERF and the so-con right.

It seems to me like the space between the "progressives" who think that sex work and p0rn are "empowering" for women, and the incels and MRAs is likewise pretty slim.  It seems to me that the space between progressives who want lesbians to "unlearn their genital preferences" and the conservative Christians who want lesbians to undergo conversion therapy is so narrow you couldn't even slide a piece of paper in there.   So... with the birds I share this lonely view, I guess.

So why do progressives have such a hard-on for p0rn and sex-work right now, anyway?

Because I thought the issue is behaviour, not simply someone's existence.

If you're trying to tell me that you think complaining to the management about that encounter would yield any possible positive results for either the woman complaining or for the business, you're either dumb or naive or perhaps just being dishonest with me. Self-identify as you wish, but I know that you're not dumb.

At least that's what you led me to believe until the sudden shift in tack a few posts back when suddenly it became a problem of insufficiently female-looking people creeping you out by their mere presence.

nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh.  Hold up. That started when you posted a picture if a highly passing trans woman to illustrate why cis women should feel comfortable sharing women's spaces with trans women.  If you want to posit the appearance of ContraPoints as a reason why women should feel comfortable sharing private space with trans women, you should be prepared to explain why women should feel just as comforable sharing their private spaces with somebody who looks like Morgane Oger or Charlotte Clymer. Michelle Winter was in the news last week. Google up Michelle Winter, tell me if you think women should have felt comfortable sharing a changing room with Michelle Winter.

Ah yes, that famously huge market presence.

But I keep hearing that most women love trans inclusion and that only a tiny fringe are opposed.  Surely all a spa or health club would have to do is hang out a shingle that says "Trans Inclusive!" and cis women would flock to the door.  Surely you aren't suggesting that most cis women don't really want to shower and change with ****-people?

Mask off.

Yes, I am going full mask-off as a heretic who believes that biologically female people have their own special needs and concerns that are separate from those of males who identify as females. So what apparel do you wear to signify your disagreement with that premise?  A clown hat and floppy shoes?

What's the alternative? Assume everyone is a creep who just wants to perv out in women's bathrooms? Interrogate every transperson about their history of gender dysphoria before you let them pee? oh wait: it's "force them into situations where their own safety could be compromised because who really gives a ****." 

I don't assume that everyone is a creep who wants to perv out in women's washrooms. I just recognize that this is something that will be exploited by creeps and perverts. And we know that's not a hypothetical, we know it's a fact. You earlier complained that I keep mentioning Jessica Yaniv. Well, the reason I keep mentioning Yaniv is that it forces people like you to acknowledge the reality of this. You guys always used to always respond to this type of thing with "that would never happen!" and now you can't do that anymore. Instead of "that would never happen" it's now "you gotta break a few eggs."

You mentioned earlier that you find it upsetting that the TERFs don't seem to care what might happen to trans women in men's prisons. Well, I completely empathize with that, because there are few things that have done more to harden my heart against trans rights activists than their continual insistence on responding to every concern with "that's a myth" or "that would never happen."  Responding to every **** thing with "that's a myth" or "that would never happen" shows that trans activists are either completely disconnected from reality, or have zero empathy for cisgender women, or both.  Trans women and their boosters keep talking about what great allies they are for cis women in "smashing the patriarchy". That's a bunch of ****.  The fact of it is this: if you guys can't understand the anxiety cis women feel when male people enter our spaces, you are not capable of being our allies in any capacity.  You said you're taking some time off from this thread, so that's something for you to ruminate on while you're away.

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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1573 on: January 28, 2021, 11:03:05 am »
It is what it is. Despite what Eloise would have you believe, I doubt that she would have been more welcome in women's spaces in 2000 or 1990 or 1980 than in 2020, because this push to make observably male people welcome in women's private spaces is a very new thing. The only thing preserving female spaces as females spaces is the social norm, and the only thing upholding that social norm is that people speak out when it is violated. You'd have people not speak out when they perceive that social norm violate, in which case the only thing left preserving women's spaces is an honor system.  Honor systems are without value, because the only people who respect an honor system are people with honor.  The people an honor system fails to keep out are the exact people who the system is supposed to protect against. So you can see the dilemma.

What you (and trans rights activists and other boosters and supporters) are advocating for is for women to never question the presence of male individuals in sex-segregated spaces. You can feign concern for Eloise and ContraPoints and other sympathetic individuals, but that is what this boils down to. You want women to meekly accept male people individuals in private spaces without question. That's the indisputable outcome of what you're advocating for.  And I can't accept that as anything except for a burden being placed upon women.

I'm talking about behaviour not someone's mere existence. Are you telling me that you'd confront someone just going about their business in a washroom simply on the basis of their looks, regardless of what they're actually doing? Again, the terms seem to have shifted here from "we're legitimately concerned about safety" to "we don't want to be made to feel uncomfortable" which are not interchangeable.

So what is being asked is that you accept transwomen into these spaces without assuming they are perverts by virtue of their biological sex at birth. I take your point on the psychological burden that may impose and sympathize to a degree, but that sympathy is blunted by your indifference to the consequences of your preferred policies to other marginalized individuals (though I doubt you would consider them as such). Why is your comfort more important than someone else's physical safety?
 
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I'm sure that you'd point to Buck Angel as a trans man who would walk into a men's restroom without anybody taking a second glance; I'd say that like Blaire White that's an issue of being highly passing rather than an indication of widespread comfort among trans men in male spaces. I suspect that trans men who aren't highly passing are scared shitless of being in single-sex spaces with cis men.

And under your rules, they aren't welcome in women's spaces if they look or dress too manly.

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It seems to me like the space between the "progressives" who think that sex work and p0rn are "empowering" for women, and the incels and MRAs is likewise pretty slim.  It seems to me that the space between progressives who want lesbians to "unlearn their genital preferences" and the conservative Christians who want lesbians to undergo conversion therapy is so narrow you couldn't even slide a piece of paper in there.   So... with the birds I share this lonely view, I guess.

Part of the problem with embedding oneself so deeply in TERFland is one marinates in these anecdotes and end up assuming it's the norm or representative. But Twitter and Tumblr aren't reality and the internet has a way of warping the message (like how the cotton ceiling thing went from a discussion about shame and body image in queer relationships to "transwomen want to coerce lesbians into taking the D.") Stepping back from this stuff for a while is probably healthy.

(Also if you think MRAs and incels are in favour of p0rn, you signalling that don't know anything about those groups, who are actually obsessed with women's sexual purity.)

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If you're trying to tell me that you think complaining to the management about that encounter would yield any possible positive results for either the woman complaining or for the business, you're either dumb or naive or perhaps just being dishonest with me. Self-identify as you wish, but I know that you're not dumb.

I too love to invent scenarios in my head so I can get mad at the outcome I imagined (which seems to be a large percentage of TERF complaints).

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nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh.  Hold up. That started when you posted a picture if a highly passing trans woman to illustrate why cis women should feel comfortable sharing women's spaces with trans women.  If you want to posit the appearance of ContraPoints as a reason why women should feel comfortable sharing private space with trans women, you should be prepared to explain why women should feel just as comforable sharing their private spaces with somebody who looks like Morgane Oger or Charlotte Clymer. Michelle Winter was in the news last week. Google up Michelle Winter, tell me if you think women should have felt comfortable sharing a changing room with Michelle Winter.

Would you be comfortable sharing the space with someone who looks like KD Lang or Abby McEnany?

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But I keep hearing that most women love trans inclusion and that only a tiny fringe are opposed.  Surely all a spa or health club would have to do is hang out a shingle that says "Trans Inclusive!" and cis women would flock to the door.  Surely you aren't suggesting that most cis women don't really want to shower and change with ****-people?

Transpeople are a small market share and the push for trans rights is relatively new so the idea that businesses are now throwing their doors open to them is pretty stupid.

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Yes, I am going full mask-off as a heretic who believes that biologically female people have their own special needs and concerns that are separate from those of males who identify as females. So what apparel do you wear to signify your disagreement with that premise?  A clown hat and floppy shoes?

No you're going mask off as someone who believes ciswomen deserve greater rights and protections than transwomen. If a transwoman gets beaten to death in a men's room, well that's just the price they pay for ciswomen's comfort. Like you say: gotta break a few eggs.

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I don't assume that everyone is a creep who wants to perv out in women's washrooms. I just recognize that this is something that will be exploited by creeps and perverts.  And we know that's not a hypothetical, we know it's a fact. You earlier complained that I keep mentioning Jessica Yaniv. Well, the reason I keep mentioning Yaniv is that it forces people like you to acknowledge the reality of this. You guys always used to always respond to this type of thing with "that would never happen!" and now you can't do that anymore. Instead of "that would never happen" it's now "you gotta break a few eggs."

No one says that wouldn't happen: the argument is prohibiting transpeople from using the facility of their choice won't stop it unless you think Yaniv was the first person ever to think about putting on a dress to do creepy ****. Do you genuinely think somehow preventing all transwomen from using the same bathroom or change room as you is going to make a dent in gender-based violence or make anyone safer? Is that even the issue at this point? It doesn't seem to be.

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You mentioned earlier that you find it upsetting that the TERFs don't seem to care what might happen to trans women in men's prisons. Well, I completely empathize with that, because there are few things that have done more to harden my heart against trans rights activists than their continual insistence on responding to every concern with "that's a myth" or "that would never happen."  Responding to every **** thing with "that's a myth" or "that would never happen" shows that trans activists are either completely disconnected from reality, or have zero empathy for cisgender women, or both. Trans women and their boosters keep talking about what great allies they are for cis women in "smashing the patriarchy". That's a bunch of ****.

The "reality" is cherry picked anecdotes of shitty people doing shitty things that you TERFs try and pass off as the norm, whether you can cop to that or not. It's not all that different from the alt-right chuds who delight in bringing up Black crime stats. When asked for data to support the claim that trans acceptance presents a material threat to ciswomen, you say "well, uh, it's not being reported" which is terribly convenient (why so many example scan be found on web forums and Twitter yet evade the gaze of actual scholarship is a real mystery).

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The fact of it is this: if you guys can't understand the anxiety cis women feel when male people enter our spaces, you are not capable of being our allies in any capacity.

Again: I'd probably be more willing to listen if TERFs weren't completely indifferent to the struggles of transpeople and the very real threats to their safety. One thing that strikes me about your arguments and those of other more famous TERFs is the lack of actual viable solutions that address the balancing act between the rights of marginalized communities when they come into conflict; rather it's about throwing up walls around the very idea of what it means to be a woman and screw everyone else. Let's face it: any group that holds up someone like Magdalen Berns as a saint isn't really asking for understanding or looking for allies outside of the narrow boundaries of what you consider to be a real feminist.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 11:40:02 am by Black Dog »

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1574 on: February 25, 2021, 01:01:18 pm »
Oh no the gender people have come for Mr Potatohead!

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Mr. Potato Head is no longer a mister. Hasbro, the company that makes the potato-shaped plastic toy, is giving the spud a gender neutral new name: Potato Head. The change will appear on boxes this year.

I assume this means they won't be including a tiny little p3nis with future versions of the toy.