Author Topic: Gender Culture  (Read 11746 times)

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Offline MH

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1530 on: January 11, 2021, 04:21:03 pm »
Interesting to check in on this. 

BD is definitely the discussion partner I could be for kimmy.  I'm kinda sad we broke up but he is better for her.  :'(
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1531 on: January 12, 2021, 01:14:42 am »
No we failed to make progress because feminists today are either GirlBoss capitalist representational feminists or frothing at the mouth genital inspectors. They quit the field.

They quit the field, but not in the way you're suggesting.    Feminism today, whether you're talking about academia or culture at large, has been swallowed whole by wokeism.  In general culture, nobody is advocating for women anymore unless it's "intersectional feminism" that's focused on racism or trans rights.  In academia, the "genital inspectors"  you complain about are a fringe minority at this point. The mainstream of feminists are too busy redefining womanhood, shitting their pants with rage over Kathleen Stock receiving the Order of the British Empire, and finding ways for cishetero people to identify as queer, to bother themselves with the mundane and uninteresting issues of female people.

Expanding the category of gender beyond A/B seems like a pretty effective way of disrupting the gender binary.

Is it, really?  What exactly is being disrupted here?  Tessa here is playing basketball, she's wearing pants, and she's got a modelling gig modelling women's clothes for a big retailer. Not terribly disruptive, to be honest.   Some teenager might think she's "disrupting the gender binary" or "smashing the patriarchy" by getting a bowl-cut and wearing a turtleneck and picking some new pronouns, but I don't see it.

"Disrupting the Gender Binary" sounds like the title of some shitty undergrad seminar that humanities students are required to take.

Also you seem to taking several different and distinct concepts- gender identity, gender roles and gender expression- and mashing them together.

Gender-people can't seem to define gender identity except in reference to gender roles and gender expression, so hopefully you can forgive my confusion.

I guess the question of why this is an area of mutual interest between genital inspectors and crazed right wing freaks has simply never crossed your mind.

There's a difference-a big one!-between associating with people who don't agree with all your goals and associating with people whose values are predominately antithetical to those you claim to espouse.

The Barack the Bomber has things to say about purity tests lol.

Yeah. He was talking about the idea that if they cut loose everybody who doesn't agree with this principle and everybody who disagrees with that principle and everybody who disagrees with the other thing, pretty soon the party would be so small as to be completely useless.   For those already pushed to the fringes by the woke mob, that's a serious concern.

I don't recall any woke groups coming forward to aid the targets of Jessica Yaniv's predatory HRC complaints. A right-wing Bible thumper group called JCCF came forward to do that. In an environment where other lawyers were too afraid of being branded transphobic if they represented those women, they were the only ones willing to take it.  It doesn't matter that JCCF are Biblethumping dickheads, it matters that those defendants be represented at the tribunal.

I might oppose 19 out of 20 things that JCCF will go to court to fight for, but hopefully the courts will arrive at the right decision, and JCCF being on the right side in the Yaniv battle doesn't carry over to the next case. Court cases are decided on their own merits.

Keira Bell's lawsuit was crowdfunded, I believe. It might well be that many of the people who donated to her were angry Bible thumpers, but so what? It was a case worth taking to court regardless. The "Alliance Defending Liberty" is the US equivalent to JCCF, and I'm sure that I would disagree with many of the things they have been to court for, but they are goin

genital inspectors

I gather you think that's clever. When you say "genital inspectors" or "your precious body parts" or "bioessentialism is degrading to women because it reduces women to their body parts", you're aligning yourself with the view that those precious body parts aren't of particular relevance to feminism. Which is the opposite of clever.

Because the premise that transwomen are a grave threat to the safety and well-being of ciswomen is unproven. Again, take the transwomen in women's prisons thing: the number of sexual assaults committed by transwomen is a small fraction of the assaults that occur, yet your big concern is around that small percentage and not the overall problem of sexual assaults in prisons. Meanwhile, transwomen in men's prisons are assaulted on a regular basis and you say nothing.

It's sounds like men's prisons are dangerous places. Why is it up to feminists to solve the problem of violence in men's prisons?

The number of assaults committed against transwomen is also a small fraction of the assaults that occur, yet your big concern is transwomen.  You know who is the target of the majority of prison violence? Men. I never hear wokies advocating for safer prisons for men. Why is that?

I highly doubt that the number of assaults committed against female prisoners by transwomen inmates is small for any reason except that this is a new thing and that so far there haven't been very many trans women in the same prisons as female people. We're still at the thin edge of the wedge on this, but we already have sex assaults resulting from the small number of trans women being put in with female people. The question isn't whether it would happen, it's how many will happen.

And if men's prison is such hell for transwomen, how come it is that so many male prisoners "discover they're women" while they're in prison?

So you want them to be equal, just...separate?

And there's the inane comparison to Jim Crow laws. Just a few more and you'll have my bingo card filled out.

Yes, separate. That's kind of the whole concept behind single sex spaces. While trans advocate talking points would compare this to separate accommodations for black people, that's a shitty argument. Because courts have repeatedly dismissed the premise that segregation by race is justifiable, they've repeatedly upheld the premise that there are circumstances when segregation by sex is justifiable. Washrooms and locker rooms have been two of those.

So prove that there's an elevated safety risk to women by allowing trans people to use the bathroom that corresponds with their gender identity. Don't just do the concern troll "just asking questions" bullshit. Put some data out there.

What's odd to me about these anecdotes is they don't actually speak to the issue of trans people to use the bathroom that corresponds with their gender identity. But you're using it to muddy the waters to say "see, look how those men behave in the bathroom with women! See how putting men in the bathroom with women is a bad idea!"

Those examples should at least help illustrate why we have single-sex washrooms in the first place.

Hard data is difficult to come by.  First off, most incidents probably wouldn't rise to the level of a criminal complaint or criminal charges, so where are the statistics going to come from?   For example Jessica Yaniv's social media history includes photos taken inside women's washrooms and posts where he complains about not seeing enough "**** and vag" when he hangs out in the women's locker room, but I'm not aware of any charges against Yaniv for such incidents.   Most women aren't going to complain, they're going to just feel less safe and act accordingly.  The woman who found herself alone in the showers with the trans woman starring at her was scared to make a complaint to her yoga studio because she was afraid it would seem transphobic. So instead she quit her yoga studio and found herself asking strangers on reddit for resources for doing yoga at home.  That's how it's going to go.  Not a mass wave of attacks, just women one at a time finding themselves in situations where they feel less safe and leaving situations where they don't feel safe anymore.

 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1532 on: January 12, 2021, 01:16:36 am »
Interesting to check in on this. 

BD is definitely the discussion partner I could be for kimmy.  I'm kinda sad we broke up but he is better for her.  :'(

I had been meaning to respond to your last post, but I've had my hands full chatting with Black Dog, and I kind of had a sense that you wanted out of this thread anyway.

 -k
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Offline MH

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1533 on: January 12, 2021, 05:10:19 am »
I had been meaning to respond to your last post, but I've had my hands full chatting with Black Dog, and I kind of had a sense that you wanted out of this thread anyway.

 -k

Yeah... I wanted to post a kind of Neil Simon, getting-in-a-cab-on-a-rainy-New-York-niight, sad-jazz-with-piano, breakup post.

We'll always have the Tebow thread  :'(

But yes, sometimes there's nothing else to be said and BD will go places that I'm not comfortable going.  I never thought I was part of the 'public' for this issue.

From Post 1 102 pages ago, when I started the thread:
"My part in this discussion is mostly to listen to others' thoughts, and to express support for citizen rights as a citizen and ally of LGBT people."

Then from Post 2 in response to you:

I don't have any real stake in this discussion, other than the fact that I am an ally and this involves a human rights question in a country where I am a citizen, but if you are interested, I will offer some observation.


Many of my posts have been defending that position from people who thought I was censoring others and trying to explain what I think the role of a public is in these topics.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1534 on: January 12, 2021, 10:14:53 am »
They quit the field, but not in the way you're suggesting.    Feminism today, whether you're talking about academia or culture at large, has been swallowed whole by wokeism.

*citation required

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In general culture, nobody is advocating for women anymore unless it's "intersectional feminism" that's focused on racism or trans rights.

That's not what intersectional feminism is.

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  In academia, the "genital inspectors"  you complain about are a fringe minority at this point. The mainstream of feminists are too busy redefining womanhood, shitting their pants with rage over Kathleen Stock receiving the Order of the British Empire, and finding ways for cishetero people to identify as queer, to bother themselves with the mundane and uninteresting issues of female people.

Ah so if i get this right your entire rationale for ignoring feminist issues outside of the trans debate is "uh...I know you are but what am I?"

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Is it, really?  What exactly is being disrupted here?  Tessa here is playing basketball, she's wearing pants, and she's got a modelling gig modelling women's clothes for a big retailer. Not terribly disruptive, to be honest.   Some teenager might think she's "disrupting the gender binary" or "smashing the patriarchy" by getting a bowl-cut and wearing a turtleneck and picking some new pronouns, but I don't see it.

"Disrupting the Gender Binary" sounds like the title of some shitty undergrad seminar that humanities students are required to take.

Oh I'm sorry, she's not doing non-binary right to your exact specifications. Please enlighten us as to the proper way to mess with the gender bianry.

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Gender-people can't seem to define gender identity except in reference to gender roles and gender expression, so hopefully you can forgive my confusion.

Yes, sure, it's always their fault.

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Yeah. He was talking about the idea that if they cut loose everybody who doesn't agree with this principle and everybody who disagrees with that principle and everybody who disagrees with the other thing, pretty soon the party would be so small as to be completely useless.   For those already pushed to the fringes by the woke mob, that's a serious concern.

Sorry I'm not going to listen to a multi-millionaire with blood on his hands opine about the state of left culture from Richard Branson's yacht. To be clear, the phenomenon he describes isn't new and isn't exclusive to the left or a product of "the woke mob." And historically speaking, such calls for unity and overlooking huge disagreements on values are really just calls for the pesky minorities to sit down and shut up.

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I don't recall any woke groups coming forward to aid the targets of Jessica Yaniv's predatory HRC complaints. A right-wing Bible thumper group called JCCF came forward to do that. In an environment where other lawyers were too afraid of being branded transphobic if they represented those women, they were the only ones willing to take it.  It doesn't matter that JCCF are Biblethumping dickheads, it matters that those defendants be represented at the tribunal.

Why didn't the lefty gendercrit feminists do it then?

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I might oppose 19 out of 20 things that JCCF will go to court to fight for, but hopefully the courts will arrive at the right decision, and JCCF being on the right side in the Yaniv battle doesn't carry over to the next case. Court cases are decided on their own merits.

We're not just talking about court cases? We're talking about giving these groups influence so the next time they go after something you actually care about-say, abortion or gay rights- you'll have a hard time saying anything when you already took their money.

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I gather you think that's clever. When you say "genital inspectors" or "your precious body parts" or "bioessentialism is degrading to women because it reduces women to their body parts", you're aligning yourself with the view that those precious body parts aren't of particular relevance to feminism. Which is the opposite of clever.

It's no more or less clever than your "wokies", "genderpeople" or mangling impersonal pronouns to show your anti-woke credentials. The rest is strawman nonsense.

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It's sounds like men's prisons are dangerous places. Why is it up to feminists to solve the problem of violence in men's prisons?

The number of assaults committed against transwomen is also a small fraction of the assaults that occur, yet your big concern is transwomen.  You know who is the target of the majority of prison violence? Men. I never hear wokies advocating for safer prisons for men. Why is that?
[/quote]

Literally the only reason I bring it up is in response to you bringing it up in the first place despite not showing any interest in the subject at any other time. But with that being said I bet wokies have done more on this issue than the right wingers you're happy to line up with or even the TERF community at large.

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I highly doubt that the number of assaults committed against female prisoners by transwomen inmates is small for any reason except that this is a new thing and that so far there haven't been very many trans women in the same prisons as female people. We're still at the thin edge of the wedge on this, but we already have sex assaults resulting from the small number of trans women being put in with female people. The question isn't whether it would happen, it's how many will happen.

So your concern isn't violence against women in women's prisons per se but the genital configuration and gender expression of those committing the acts. Gotcha.

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And if men's prison is such hell for transwomen, how come it is that so many male prisoners "discover they're women" while they're in prison

How many is so many, exactly? Is this a real phenomenon or another one of those urgent problems you have a hard time finding any hard data on?

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And there's the inane comparison to Jim Crow laws. Just a few more and you'll have my bingo card filled out.

Yeah it's almost as if these things keep popping up for a reason and instead of engaging it it's easier for you to be dismissive.

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Yes, separate. That's kind of the whole concept behind single sex spaces. While trans advocate talking points would compare this to separate accommodations for black people, that's a shitty argument. Because courts have repeatedly dismissed the premise that segregation by race is justifiable, they've repeatedly upheld the premise that there are circumstances when segregation by sex is justifiable. Washrooms and locker rooms have been two of those.

Except the issue of transgender use of these spaces is still very much up in the air, legally speaking.

The hilarious thing about the idea that people should pee in the washroom that corresponds with their sex at birth is in practice, that this person can use the women's washroom:


But this person needs to use the mens room:



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Those examples should at least help illustrate why we have single-sex washrooms in the first place.

But it requires accepting the premise that biological sex is the only determinant of human behaviour that matters, which is abject nonsense,

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Hard data is difficult to come by.  First off, most incidents probably wouldn't rise to the level of a criminal complaint or criminal charges, so where are the statistics going to come from?

So it's an urgent safety issue but also most of the issues aren't serious enough to warrant a criminal complaint? What sort of incidents are we talking about here?

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For example Jessica Yaniv's social media history includes photos taken inside women's washrooms and posts where he complains about not seeing enough "**** and vag" when he hangs out in the women's locker room, but I'm not aware of any charges against Yaniv for such incidents.   Most women aren't going to complain, they're going to just feel less safe and act accordingly.  The woman who found herself alone in the showers with the trans woman starring at her was scared to make a complaint to her yoga studio because she was afraid it would seem transphobic. So instead she quit her yoga studio and found herself asking strangers on reddit for resources for doing yoga at home.  That's how it's going to go.  Not a mass wave of attacks, just women one at a time finding themselves in situations where they feel less safe and leaving situations where they don't feel safe anymore.

Sorry but maybe they should complain and help to weed out creeps instead of discriminating against the entirety of a group based on the actions a few. Here's a shocking bit of news: transwomen have been using women's washrooms for ages. You've probably peed in a stall next to one at some point without incident. Which really raises the practical question of how you're going to keep them out without stationing literal genital inspectors at the doors.

Finally, it's extremely telling to me that there's like a handful of examples you're able to come back with over and over again (Yaniv and the possibly apocryphal yoga hard on) and rather than take that as an indication that maybe these are a few isolated incidents perpetrated by creeps (which come in all shapes sizes and genders) you seem to think it's an indication that transpeople are somehow predisposed to being creeps. It's such an obvious echo of gay panics in the past that it's impossible to take seriously and obscures any actual legitimate concerns you may have.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 01:28:26 pm by Black Dog »
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Offline MH

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1535 on: January 12, 2021, 12:35:25 pm »
Would anyone here date a trans person ?  ???

I can't say "never" to my future self but I can't honestly see it ever happening.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1536 on: January 12, 2021, 01:41:10 pm »
Would anyone here date a trans person ?  ???

I can't say "never" to my future self but I can't honestly see it ever happening.

It kinda depends on the person.

Offline MH

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1537 on: January 12, 2021, 02:02:01 pm »
It kinda depends on the person.

Well I guess I meant 'ever' ?  Sounds like a yes from you and a "not no" from me.

Offline MH

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1538 on: January 12, 2021, 02:03:11 pm »
It's also akin to asking "would you ever date someone you couldn't have sex with ?"

I don't think I could ever get excited about a ****... ever.  So for me the question is loaded with assumptions.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1539 on: January 12, 2021, 02:18:06 pm »
It's also akin to asking "would you ever date someone you couldn't have sex with ?"

I don't think I could ever get excited about a ****... ever.  So for me the question is loaded with assumptions.

That's why it's impossible to answer.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1540 on: January 14, 2021, 12:18:23 am »
Would anyone here date a trans person ?  ???

I can't say "never" to my future self but I can't honestly see it ever happening.

I couldn't say I would never, but I think it would have to be somebody really extraordinary.  We had this chat a while back, and I think I mentioned that trans people complaining about the "cotton ceiling" was one of the straws that broke the camel's back for me. 

1. It's also akin to asking "would you ever date someone you couldn't have sex with ?"

2. I don't think I could ever get excited about a ****... ever.  So for me the question is loaded with assumptions.

1.  So, I feel like there's probably a punchline here waiting to happen, but apparently I have to be the one to point out that there are lots ways to have sex that don't involve pen!s in vag!na.  Some trans people (some of those who actually have gender dysphoria, anyway) say that having their genitals touched during sex actually triggers their dysphoria and makes them uncomfortable.

2.  I think this is the real deal-breaker for most people on this subject.  Most people have a sexual orientation, not a "genital preference", and being reminded that your partner has gear that you're not expecting at an inopportune moment could be a triggering event.  Although, some people do get "bottom surgery".  I have never seen the results of that.

For me, I spent years trying to like p-i-v sex. It wasn't awful, didn't make me want to kill myself or anything. It just somehow didn't really work for me. I spent years trying to figure out why I didn't get the same kind of thrill from being with my special guy that I got from frolicking with other girls. I kept thinking that once I got more comfortable with it things would be more natural and better, and just never really did. It wasn't awful, it just didn't have that spark of magic. I went through all that once already and have no need to do it again.

 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1541 on: January 14, 2021, 12:53:41 am »


The hilarious thing about the idea that people should pee in the washroom that corresponds with their sex at birth is in practice, that this person can use the women's washroom:


But this person needs to use the mens room:



Here's a shocking bit of news: transwomen have been using women's washrooms for ages. You've probably peed in a stall next to one at some point without incident. Which really raises the practical question of how you're going to keep them out without stationing literal genital inspectors at the doors.


Yeah yeah, I know. Passing trans people exist, and would cause surprise or worse if they went in the washroom that corresponds with their birth sex.

But somebody who looks like ContraPoints (or Blaire White, or Nicole Maines, or that Brazilian swimsuit model...) could go into the womens' room without anybody taking a second glance.  Passing individuals could come and go without anybody noticing. If all trans people passed as well as they do, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

The issue isn't passing individuals. The issue is non-passing individuals.  It's not whether women have the right to know they're in the presence of a trans individual they can't detect, it's whether they have the right to object when some obviously male person wanders in.

Instead of ContraPoints, let's consider Morgane Oger, BC's well-known trans rights activist:



Mrs Oger is a legitimate activist who has ran for public office and been a high-ranking official with the provincial NDP. She runs a charitable organization. She's probably a very nice person.  And she has as much right to go into the women's washroom as ContraPoints or Blaire White, because Canadian law is based on your self-declared gender ID, not on how well you pass.

But she looks like a man in a dress. And if women don't have the right to be concerned if somebody who looks like Morgane Oger shows up in the women's room, then women don't have the right to be concerned when an actual man in a dress shows up in the women's room either.


 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1542 on: January 14, 2021, 01:13:27 am »
*citation required

Maybe you should provide a citation for your fanciful notion that all the feminists have turned into "genital inspectors", because I can't figure out what the **** you're talking about.  It's so far removed from reality that it sounds like you're communicating from us from an alternate reality.

That's not what intersectional feminism is.

I know what intersectional feminism is in theory.   And I've seen enough of how these discussions go to know how it works in practice.

Ah so if i get this right your entire rationale for ignoring feminist issues outside of the trans debate is "uh...I know you are but what am I?"

What? That's bullshit. The TERFs are the only ones left who are still talking about feminist issues.

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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1543 on: January 14, 2021, 10:12:59 am »
Yeah yeah, I know. Passing trans people exist, and would cause surprise or worse if they went in the washroom that corresponds with their birth sex.

But somebody who looks like ContraPoints (or Blaire White, or Nicole Maines, or that Brazilian swimsuit model...) could go into the womens' room without anybody taking a second glance.  Passing individuals could come and go without anybody noticing. If all trans people passed as well as they do, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

The issue isn't passing individuals. The issue is non-passing individuals.  It's not whether women have the right to know they're in the presence of a trans individual they can't detect, it's whether they have the right to object when some obviously male person wanders in.

Instead of ContraPoints, let's consider Morgane Oger, BC's well-known trans rights activist:



Mrs Oger is a legitimate activist who has ran for public office and been a high-ranking official with the provincial NDP. She runs a charitable organization. She's probably a very nice person.  And she has as much right to go into the women's washroom as ContraPoints or Blaire White, because Canadian law is based on your self-declared gender ID, not on how well you pass.

But she looks like a man in a dress. And if women don't have the right to be concerned if somebody who looks like Morgane Oger shows up in the women's room, then women don't have the right to be concerned when an actual man in a dress shows up in the women's room either.

Do you lose your **** every time some ugly or insufficiently femme-y woman comes into the bathroom? Are non-passing trans people less dangerous than passing trans people?

Weird that someone who is complaining about trans activists relying on gender stereotypes would use those stereotypes to determine who is and who isn't a "concern". Because i thought the issue was personal safety, not "I'm not comfortable sharing a bathroom with a real uggo".
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 10:25:50 am by Black Dog »
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1544 on: January 14, 2021, 10:23:32 am »
Maybe you should provide a citation for your fanciful notion that all the feminists have turned into "genital inspectors", because I can't figure out what the **** you're talking about.  It's so far removed from reality that it sounds like you're communicating from us from an alternate reality.
 -k

As is your claim that the wokies have taken over everything. That's the kind of conclusion you come to when you spend too much time on Twitter huffing Jon Kay's farts. By that I mean if you spend all your time searching for evidence that the world is against you as the Ineffectual Dork Web types do, you will come up with a lot of it.

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What? That's bullshit. The TERFs are the only ones left who are still talking about feminist issues.

The only "feminist issues" TERFS care about are related to trans people. C'est tout. I can't find any evidence of any notable TERFs taking stances on issues like sexual or physical violence against incarcerated women or engaging in any activism to reduce it. Take the aforementioned Kathleen Stock; I've looked to see if she's ever advocated for this cause in any other context and found exactly one mention, a twitter post she made where she dismissed the idea that gendercritical feminists don't care about the issue, begs off by saying "such violence is hard to fix tho" and then went back to talking about the trans problem.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 03:08:58 pm by Black Dog »