Author Topic: Gender Culture  (Read 56061 times)

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Offline Omni

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #195 on: September 17, 2017, 03:39:12 pm »
I can see that you believe throwing any piece of crap opinion up there ought to be enough to satisfy anyone who dares to question Immigration, but I'm afraid most of us are a lot less ideologically committed to the program and require actual evidence rather than bland reassurances from columnists and immigration lawyers.

By the way, did you notice that NONE of them supported your statement there were statistics and evidence to support the belief immigration helps the economy? No, I suppose not. I guess that's what life is like when you have a closed mind.

Speaking of a closed mind, I guess you managed to ignore comments such as:

Labour markets

    Migrants accounted for 47% of the increase in the workforce in the United States and 70% in Europe over the past ten years.
    Migrants fill important niches both in fast-growing and declining sectors of the economy.
    Like the native-born, young migrants are better educated than those nearing retirement.
    Migrants contribute significantly to labour-market flexibility, notably in Europe.

Public purse

    Migrants contribute more in taxes and social contributions than they receive in benefits.
    Labour migrants have the most positive impact on the public purse.
    Employment is the single biggest determinant of migrants’ net fiscal contribution.

Economic growth

    Migration boosts the working-age population.
    Migrants arrive with skills and contribute to human capital development of receiving countries.
    Migrants also contribute to technological progress.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #196 on: September 17, 2017, 04:31:01 pm »
Speaking of a closed mind, I guess you managed to ignore comments such as:

Labour markets

    Migrants accounted for 47% of the increase in the workforce in the United States and 70% in Europe over the past ten years.
    Migrants fill important niches both in fast-growing and declining sectors of the economy.
    Like the native-born, young migrants are better educated than those nearing retirement.
    Migrants contribute significantly to labour-market flexibility, notably in Europe.

Public purse

    Migrants contribute more in taxes and social contributions than they receive in benefits.
    Labour migrants have the most positive impact on the public purse.
    Employment is the single biggest determinant of migrants’ net fiscal contribution.

Economic growth

    Migration boosts the working-age population.
    Migrants arrive with skills and contribute to human capital development of receiving countries.
    Migrants also contribute to technological progress.

All of that boiled down to a section of the OECD report, which I derived the actual summary facts from. I know you're not interested in actual facts, however, but the point remains even this report said there was no economic basis for immigration. Furthermore it was a wide scale study over 50 years of all OECD countries combined, as I said. Very few nations import hundreds of thousands of third world people every year like Canada does and has been doing for over 30 of those years. Thus the statement in the report that migrants neither helped nor hurt an economy can't be taken as fact for Canada and paid more in taxes than they used in services is not relevant. The only such study done of Canada was by the Fraser Institute, which concluded otherwise.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #197 on: September 17, 2017, 07:01:36 pm »
All of that boiled down to a section of the OECD report, which I derived the actual summary facts from. I know you're not interested in actual facts, however, but the point remains even this report said there was no economic basis for immigration. Furthermore it was a wide scale study over 50 years of all OECD countries combined, as I said. Very few nations import hundreds of thousands of third world people every year like Canada does and has been doing for over 30 of those years. Thus the statement in the report that migrants neither helped nor hurt an economy can't be taken as fact for Canada and paid more in taxes than they used in services is not relevant. The only such study done of Canada was by the Fraser Institute, which concluded otherwise.

I know you often ignore information that refutes your opinion, but surely even you must be aware that this country was built by immigrants. And I'm sure you can comprehend the idea that, since we not having many babies, and we are getting older, without immigration we could well end up a country of old folks seeking health care and pensions, with nobody at work to pay for those things. Reality trumps xenophobia I'm afraid to have to tell you.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #198 on: September 17, 2017, 08:12:05 pm »
I know you often ignore information that refutes your opinion, but surely even you must be aware that this country was built by immigrants.

I'm not sure what you mean about 'ignoring' opinions. I read an opinion and then I judge it as to its merit. I'm sorry that it bothers you that I judge almost all of yours to be without merit, but you never have any facts to back up those opinions.

This country was built by immigrants? How is that even relevant? Are you saying that we need to always do what we did a century ago?  I could say "This country was built by shoving all the natives aside and ignoring them". Does that mean that's what we should always do? We brought in immigrants when it was in this country's economic interest and in the interest of its people to do so. Those immigrants were, by and large, of the same technological and educational abilities as us and the same or close to the same cultural background for most of the existence of this country. Should we do that again? Bring in mostly immigrants of the same cultural and linguistic background as us?

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And I'm sure you can comprehend the idea that, since we not having many babies, and we are getting older, without immigration we could well end up a country of old folks

That argument would hold some merit if every demographics expert I've looked at (and cited) didn't totally refute immigration as a means to address either a low birth rate or an aging population.

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seeking health care and pensions, with nobody at work to pay for those things.

It's good to have someone else pay for stuff for you, isn't it? That IS the liberal mantra, after all. Unfortunately, the logic escapes me as to how bringing in masses of people who don't earn enough to pay taxes is going to wind up paying for our health care or pensions.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 09:58:39 am by JMT »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #199 on: September 17, 2017, 08:21:11 pm »
I'm not sure what you mean about 'ignoring' opinions. I read an opinion and then I judge it as to its merit. I'm sorry that it bothers you that I judge almost all of yours to be without merit, but you never have any facts to back up those opinions.

This country was built by immigrants? How is that even relevant? Are you saying that we need to always do what we did a century ago?  I could say "This country was built by shoving all the natives aside and ignoring them". Does that mean that's what we should always do? We brought in immigrants when it was in this country's economic interest and in the interest of its people to do so. Those immigrants were, by and large, of the same technological and educational abilities as us and the same or close to the same cultural background for most of the existence of this country. Should we do that again? Bring in mostly immigrants of the same cultural and linguistic background as us?

That argument would hold some merit if every demographics expert I've looked at (and cited) didn't totally refute immigration as a means to address either a low birth rate or an aging population.

It's good to have someone else pay for stuff for you, isn't it? That IS the liberal mantra, after all. Unfortunately, the logic escapes me as to how bringing in masses of people who don't earn enough to pay taxes is going to wind up paying for our health care or pensions.

It's more like the stupidity of your argument fails to trump reality.

Well, here's some reading for you which I'm sure will inspire more, but oh well, we're all used to it.

https://www.cicnews.com/2016/10/canada-needs-immigration-to-balance-aging-population-108568.html#gs.IotxFz0
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 09:56:51 am by JMT »

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #200 on: September 17, 2017, 09:13:35 pm »
And once again you show all you can do when challenged and shown wrong is flail around spewing insults. Well, here's some reading for you which I'm sure will inspire more, but oh well, we're all used to it.

https://www.cicnews.com/2016/10/canada-needs-immigration-to-balance-aging-population-108568.html#gs.IotxFz0

First, it provides 5 'scenarios' related to ever increasing immigration, in the top one bringing our population up to 100 million. At the end of listing the five scenarios it says this.

While these scenarios slow the pace of the overall population aging, it is evident that none of them reverse it. In each of these scenarios, the share of the population over the age of 65 exceeds 22 per cent in 2030 (up from 6.1 per cent today). Even in the scenario where Canada’s population reaches 100 million by the turn of the next century, the proportion of the population aged 65 and over never falls below 20 per cent.

I'll throw in another quote. This is from scenario one, which is basically not increasing immigration at all, but keeping it at 268,000, where it was before the Liberals increased it.

If Canada’s current fertility rate of 1.55 continues, the natural increase in the population (births minus deaths) becomes negative by 2034, despite the continued downward trend in death rates. immigration levels rise gradually, but immigration as a share of the population remains the same throughout the forecast. in this scenario, Canada’s population reaches 53.7 million in 2100.

A population of 53.7 million by 2100! I know I'm not worried! Why then do they call for increasing immigration? Because the entire report is based on a macroeconomic desire for growth. Ie, all it cares about is growth in GDP. It only focuses on growing the pie. But with so many extra mouths at the table, growing the pie doesn't necessarily help any of us. Further, the report says absolutely nothing about the type of immigrants coming in. The assumption seems to be that all immigrants will come in and pay taxes to help support the government. Bringing in masses of third world rabble who can only do low skilled jobs is not going to do that. Particularly as low skilled jobs, like taxi driver, are going to disappear over the coming decade or two.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 09:59:36 am by JMT »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #201 on: September 17, 2017, 09:24:57 pm »
You really have to stop sniveling when people insult you back. If you can't take it then stop insulting people. Now, as to your cite, which again, I know you are too intellectually lazy to have actually checked out, let me quote you from the actual report. First, it provides 5 'scenarios' related to ever increasing immigration, in the top one bringing our population up to 100 million. At the end of listing the five scenarios it says this.

While these scenarios slow the pace of the overall population aging, it is evident that none of them reverse it. In each of these scenarios, the share of the population over the age of 65 exceeds 22 per cent in 2030 (up from 6.1 per cent today). Even in the scenario where Canada’s population reaches 100 million by the turn of the next century, the proportion of the population aged 65 and over never falls below 20 per cent.

I'll throw in another quote. This is from scenario one, which is basically not increasing immigration at all, but keeping it at 268,000, where it was before the Liberals increased it.

If Canada’s current fertility rate of 1.55 continues, the natural increase in the population (births minus deaths) becomes negative by 2034, despite the continued downward trend in death rates. immigration levels rise gradually, but immigration as a share of the population remains the same throughout the forecast. in this scenario, Canada’s population reaches 53.7 million in 2100.

A population of 53.7 million by 2100! I know I'm not worried! Why then do they call for increasing immigration? Because the entire report is based on a macroeconomic desire for growth. Ie, all it cares about is growth in GDP. It only focuses on growing the pie. But with so many extra mouths at the table, growing the pie doesn't necessarily help any of us. Further, the report says absolutely nothing about the type of immigrants coming in. The assumption seems to be that all immigrants will come in and pay taxes to help support the government. Bringing in masses of third world rabble who can only do low skilled jobs is not going to do that. Particularly as low skilled jobs, like taxi driver, are going to disappear over the coming decade or two.

Now I know all this analyses is just going to fly right over your head and you'll come back with something insulting, probably about xenophobia, so go ahead.

The majority of immigrants that do arrive in Canada do go to work, do pay taxes, and do contribute to our society. Yes there are Syrian refugees for instance who may take a bit more time to integrate fully, but then again they are escaping a war zone they had nothing to do with creating. We have to be compassionate, at least in my opinion, but apparently it's not yours.
I see Trump has changed his approach to immigration and people of your ilk are burning their MAGA hats. Have you burned yours yet?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 09:59:14 am by JMT »

Offline JMT

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #202 on: September 18, 2017, 09:57:17 am »
Guys, really - you can not like eachother, that's fine, but shut up about it. 

Have a discussion.  If you don't want to, just don't talk.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #203 on: September 18, 2017, 12:01:40 pm »
The majority of immigrants that do arrive in Canada do go to work, do pay taxes, and do contribute to our society.

So given I have completely demolished your argument you've shifted to this. The problem with it is, of course, the total lack of supporting evidence. Further, the illogical nature of it almost goes without saying. If the majority of people don't commit murder does that make society a peaceful place? Hardly. If the majority of employees at a business actualy do some work does that make the place efficient? Clearly not. Multiple reports from multiple sources have documented the deteriorating economic success ratio of our immgriants, largely due to the growing gap between the technological nature of the workplace here vs the third world shitholes they come from.

Given our progressive taxation system means the lower earning 50% of the population is only responsible for 3% of income taxes I don't want to import a bunch of taxi drivers, security guards, janitors and shop clerks. They're not going to do anything but consume taxes.

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Yes there are Syrian refugees for instance who may take a bit more time to integrate fully,

In all likelihood they will NEVER integrate fully, and most will never be taxpayers.

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but then again they are escaping a war zone

They were living safely in Turkey.

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We have to be compassionate, at least in my opinion, but apparently it's not yours.

Compassionate with other people's money. If you want to be compassionate take YOUR money, presuming you have any, and send it to a relief fund that takes care of refugees in Turkey or Lebanon or Jordan. I prefer to be compassionate to people here.

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I see Trump has changed his approach to immigration and people of your ilk are burning their MAGA hats. Have you burned yours yet?

I have always been in favour of allowing children who have grown up in the US to stay there. Further, my opinion of Trump is a matter of substantial record you couldn't possibly fail to have noticed.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #204 on: September 18, 2017, 09:35:10 pm »
So given I have completely demolished your argument you've shifted to this.

You've demolished nothing. You continue to try and distance yourself from Trump, but at the same time continue to espouse similar concepts as to immigration.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 09:41:10 pm by JMT »

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #205 on: September 18, 2017, 11:19:15 pm »
Most of the Muslims coming here are fleeing the ****. The **** don't want to live in a plural, democratic and mostly Christian country.

I really don't think they're coming here because they have a thirst for democracy, or pluralism, or multiculturalism. I think that for the most part they're coming here because they want a higher standard of living, or because their home countries are being torn apart by sectarian strife.  Not because they're upset at the way religious minorities or gay people get treated back home.

And the horrid ones are not the ones emigrating here.

Clearly plenty of horrid ones have emigrated to England and France and Germany and other parts of Europe. What makes you think we're any different?

Alert the authorities....religious people go to religious services! 

The disappointing (I did use the word disappointing, not alarming) is that this number is increasing rather than decreasing.  I've always assumed that as newcomers come to Canada they'll become more secular, as religious Canadians have over the years.  Clearly that isn't happening.

Considering I'd be put in prison or worse if I went to their countries, I don't think I'm being unreasonable in feeling concerned that these attitudes are growing in Canada.

 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #206 on: September 18, 2017, 11:59:36 pm »
Herein lies the problem with naming 'groups' and claiming they all have the same thoughts - I agree with Murphy that male-looking people don't really need to be in women-only spaces, but because I also don't see a problem with Muslims immigrating to Canada, I'm lumped in with people you might consider hypocritical or inconsistent.   

Not necessarily hypocritical or inconsistent.  But unconditional support for trans rights is a huge litmus test for progressives, and support for mass third world immigration is also a huge litmus test for progressives, and if you're not in favor of both, you might not be very progressive after all-- ask Megan Murphy.


And I point out, once again, that we have been accepting refugees from the essentially the same countries, in roughly the same ratios for decades, yet we have still managed to implement progressive policies, and have increased the rights of gays, trans and women.   It simply does not seem logical that only those from Muslim-majority countries will suddenly turn us on our ear and result in going backwards in this regard.

While the ratios may be the same, the numbers have risen dramatically in recent years.  Sooner or later, if it's not already happening, we're going to have Muslim enclaves, kind of like Richmond has become essentially a Chinese city within Canada. And when you do get these areas where immigrants can go through all your business in a day without interacting with anybody from outside their culture, integrating with the Canadian mainstream is no longer a priority.  They have this in England. We'll have it in Canada before long. Is that good?

This flies in the face of the conservative argument that "immigrants will only vote Liberal because of Liberals open door policy on immigration, that's why Liberals let in unlimited numbers of immigrants and refugees".   I did a quick search and couldn't find anything I considered credible on voting habits of immigrants, but judging by who I see running for various parties, it looks to me as if immigrants tend towards more socially liberal platforms by a slight margin.  But I could be wrong about that.

My hunch is that immigrants vote Liberal because they're worried that Conservatives don't want immigration, not because they're socially liberal.

Are homosexuals in Eritrea (50% Christian/50% Islamic), Russia (Catholic official religion) and Uganda (Christian) treated as refugees as well?   All three of those countries jail homosexuals, and in Eritrea and Uganda especially, there is not much backlash for attacking and killing them. 

I believe Canada's stance is that you're in a country where you're likely to suffer persecution due to your sexual orientation, you've got a valid refugee claim.  Uganda certainly qualifies. Not sure what the status is in Eritrea. Not sure about Russia-- it's not just a matter of "people don't like gays here", it's a question of actual persecution.  Recent news items indicate that Chechnya would certainly qualify. It's not just Muslim countries.


I agree, the girl from SA wearing a miniskirt isn't coming to Canada, and she is one of the many that gets lumped into the 'Muslims are bad' narrative.  And sure, not able to wear a miniskirt is pretty mild compared to other abuses women endure in SA - but the yearning and bravery I saw in this stuck with me.   

SA is a dirtbag country and while we could do something about it, we'd rather have oil.

The truly sickening thing about Saudi Arabia is the treatment of foreign workers who go there only to discover they've become virtually slaves, with no real rights and no way to get back home. It's a disgusting place.   If the god of Abraham were real, he'd rain down punishment on that place that would make Sodom and Gomorrah look like an amusement park.

 -k
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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #207 on: September 19, 2017, 12:04:39 am »

The disappointing (I did use the word disappointing, not alarming) is that this number is increasing rather than decreasing.  I've always assumed that as newcomers come to Canada they'll become more secular, as religious Canadians have over the years.  Clearly that isn't happening.



I know Islam is the religion most talked about, but did you realize the Catholics, Hindus and Sikhs are also increasing in number in Canada?   And, they follow a similar pattern to Muslims:  it is the younger generation who tends to be more devout than their parents. 

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The exact opposite is the case for those born outside Canada: almost half of those aged 18 to 34 said they attend a religious service at least once a month. A smaller number, 27 per cent of the foreign-born older than 55, make the same claim.
Christianity has certainly benefited from the arrival of newcomers. Bibby’s prior research, which looked at 2011 Statistics Canada and National Household Survey data, found that about one in every two immigrants to Canada between 2001 and 2011 was either a Catholic or a Protestant. Nearly 500,000 immigrants who arrived in Canada during that span identified as Roman Catholic.

http://www.macleans.ca/society/life/what-canadians-really-believe/

Offline Omni

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #208 on: September 19, 2017, 12:30:51 am »
Your own cite? The one you linked to just a couple of days ago?

That one? Remember that? No? Forgot that already? Alright then.

Apparently you missed the point as to counter argus' attempt to state that the majority of Muslim women in Canada wear the hijab etc. 48% is not a majority just to correct the math. And also it has been shown that women who do wear scarfs do so to celebrate their religion, not unlike Christian's who wear crosses, and not because they might be beaten senseless by their husbands if they don't as your ilk seem to suggest.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 08:03:39 am by JMT »

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #209 on: September 19, 2017, 12:48:18 am »
Apparently you missed the point as to counter argus' attempt to state that the majority of Muslim women in Canada wear the hijab etc. 48% is not a majority just to correct the math. And also it has been shown that women who do wear scarfs do so to celebrate their religion, not unlike Christian's who wear crosses, and not because they might be beaten senseless by their husbands if they don't as your ilk seem to suggest.

So first off, the article said that 48% wear the hijab, plus an additional 6% wear the burqa or chador, for a total of 54%. Which everybody except you seemed to recognize constitutes a majority.

But the main point I was addressing is that that number has increased-- by 10% since the previous survey. And that the religious attendance has also increased by 7% since the previous survey. In short, Canadian Muslims are becoming increasingly religious, not secular. 

Sorry if my sites contradict your concepts, and I choose not to succumb to your xenophobia.

Your site supports exactly what I said.  The only thing you've succumb to is your unfailing ability to be a failure.

 -k
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