Author Topic: Gender Culture  (Read 56035 times)

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guest4

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #165 on: September 16, 2017, 10:08:06 am »
A series of cites about a few gay Muslims is somehow supposed to answer all the polls and surveys on Muslim attitudes, not to mention the preponderance of FGM in your favorite, woman friendly Muslim country - Egypt? No, of course not. Even you admit that. I'm not even sure what your post is about then, other than to try to once again argue against the straw man I've denied many times, that I believe ALL Muslims are horrid.

Yes, you do sometimes say "Not all Muslims are bad", and then you also say things like "they all look and think alike" and "they can't change" and "they're backwards and ignorant" and only allow the "anti-Muslim" part of a survey to stand as truth.  Like the tweets that come from Trump's hand speak more loudly than his teleprompted speeches, your constant anti-Muslim screeds outweigh your occasional acknowledgement that Muslims aren't all horrid.

So, my identification of real Muslims who are nothing like you claim "most" Muslims are is merely the tip of the iceberg you refuse to see.   I can admit they are not yet the majority; how about you try seeing the reality that the 'horrid' Muslims are not nearly the monsters you'd have us believe.


Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #166 on: September 16, 2017, 10:10:27 am »
Yes, you do sometimes say "Not all Muslims are bad", and then you also say things like "they all look and think alike" and "they can't change" and "they're backwards and ignorant"

I've never said they all look alike or think alike. I've never said they can't change. I do believe anyone who clings to the severe religious dogma of Islam is backwards and ignorant, however.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

guest4

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #167 on: September 16, 2017, 10:47:21 am »
What, with facts and figures and polls, you mean?
You mean, those facts/figures/polls that you will only accept the part that supports YOUR anti-Muslim agenda?  The Muslims who said "I'm proud of Canada" or "I appreciate Canada's diversity and freedoms" must be lying?  Those were YOUR words.   If you don't remember, I will find the post.  And, incidentally - you are the only one I'm aware of who has actually outright rejected the part of the poll that didn't support his claim by saying the respondents must have lied.

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As I recall, the survey in question was a much softer duplicate of one taken in the UK. Both asked whether Muslims were proud of being Canadians/British, and both returned very high numbers in the affirmative. You suggested this meant they were integrating. However, the British poll also asked questions the Canadian poll didn't, like should homosexuals be imprisoned. Half of British Muslims said they should be. Is there a reason to believe half of Canadian Muslims wouldn't agree?

Here is a gay British Muslim's man's thoughts regarding that poll - it both supports the anti-Muslim interpretation and invites people to think a little bit differently about this issue:  http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/as-a-gay-british-muslim-this-is-what-i-think-of-the-survey-finding-over-half-of-british-muslims-want-a6978881.html

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Never made any such claim. Although I do believe that devoted Muslims believe in Islam. That seems to bother you endlessly.
Yeah, you did.  Do I have to go find the post?  Not that you are the only one that thinks like that - so that statement wasn't just referring to you.

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Never made that claim either. I simply pointed out that cultural values reinforced by religion are far more difficult to shed than those which derive from a country left behind.

I don't know if you've made this statement or not, but it has been made by many people who share your agenda.  Keep in mind, not everything is about you, even if I post it.

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Nonsense.
I agree it's nonsense, but as I have said before - and which you seem to have trouble understanding - not everything I post is explicitly about you.

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It is. End of discussion. Anyone who believes in Sharia has no place in Canada. Anyone who supports Sharia has no place in Canada. Deport them all, whether they're Muslims or not.
Sharia law as practiced in many countries does not include any kind of physical brutality.  One may disagree with the family law aspect of Sharia, but the claim that it is always about cutting off limbs/heads or stoning people is simply wrong.  And as long as such ignorance continues, then the discussion is not over.  And, again a reminder - since many people accept ignorance over knowledge, this statement is not explicitly about you, in case you thought it was.   

A true debate cannot happen about anything when people prefer lurid exaggerations over fact and substance.   

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No, its a bill that calls for a study which would set the stage for laws against free speech.
Funny how the same warning was sounded for the Ottawa Protocol in 2010, yet Canadians are still free to criticize Isreal. 
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Nov 10, 2010 – Free speech advocates warn that Canadians face severe restrictions on freedom of expression if the definition of anti-Semitism recommended in Ottawa this week is adopted.

The definition of anti-Semitism advocated by the self-styled Inter-Parliamentary Coalition to Combat Anti-Semitism (ICCA) would outlaw legitimate political opinion as a means to silence criticism of Israel and its treatment of Palestinians.
According to the Seriously Free Speech Committee, if governments and other bodies adopt the proposed definition contained in the Ottawa Protocol.   the following statements would be condemned or criminalized:
• I consider Israel’s bombardment of Gaza in 2009 that resulted in the killing of 1,400 Palestinians, many of them children, to be a crime against humanity.
• Israel’s apartheid policies make it an appropriate target for an international campaign of boycott, divestment and sanctions
  https://seriouslyfreespeech.wordpress.com/cpcca/icca-ottawa-protocol/

So excuse me if I call bunk on a similar claim made against M103.


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If I brought up every misdeed by anyone Muslims I wouldn't have time to do anything else but post them 24hrs a day, 7 days a week. 
This is not something that you do.  But then my post wasn't specifically about you, despite your conviction that everything I post is about you.   

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This, once again, is a figment of your tormented imagination.
And, once again, not specifically abut you - despite your tormented imagining that I only ever post about you or to you.

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Most of your claims are just shrill blathering from a person who seems to have devoted their life to the expansion and protection of Islam.
Islam, along with Christianity and every other religion, can go hang as far as I'm concerned.  But the ignorance and hyperbole that is being spread about Muslims as people, and resulting in law-abiding Muslism (not to mention Sikhs and other brown people) being attacked verbally and physically, is as wrong as the religions themselves.

guest7

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #168 on: September 16, 2017, 11:24:11 am »
But the ignorance and hyperbole that is being spread about Muslims as people, and resulting in law-abiding Muslism (not to mention Sikhs and other brown people) being attacked verbally and physically, is as wrong as the religions themselves.

Just in today's paper, ISIS has claimed responsibility for yesterday's London bombing fail, and a Christian has been sentenced to death in Pakistan for blasphemy.

At what point do we have to stop talking about such things to avoid them being considered ignorance and hyperbole?

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #169 on: September 16, 2017, 11:29:15 am »
Talking past each other.

Option 1: Blame & Shame Muslims in Canada
Option 2: Stop talking about Islam

Stupid choices.

guest7

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #170 on: September 16, 2017, 11:31:16 am »
Talking past each other.

Option 1: Blame & Shame Muslims in Canada
Option 2: Stop talking about Islam

Stupid choices.

That was my point...

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #171 on: September 16, 2017, 11:32:41 am »
Then why did you suggest we stop talking about things ?

guest4

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #172 on: September 16, 2017, 11:37:05 am »
Just in today's paper, ISIS has claimed responsibility for yesterday's London bombing fail, and a Christian has been sentenced to death in Pakistan for blasphemy.

At what point do we have to stop talking about such things to avoid them being considered ignorance and hyperbole?

Maybe at the point that a Christian who performed an honor killing in Isreal last July is highlighted with screaming headlines, status updates and posts as an example of the barbarity of Christians?  Or when the Jewish and Christian practice of circumcising boys is condemned and it's religious adherents have to undergo 'screening' to prove they are worthy of being admitted into Canada?   How about noting how many parents who horrendously mistreat their children in American and Canada because they are "Christians"?   Or maybe when Christians who disapprove of homosexuality are condemned as roundly as Muslims, because some Christians in Africa and the Middle East kill homosexuals?  How about when we start insisting that Nigerian and Russian Christians should not be welcome in Canada because gays are jailed in both of those predominantly Christian countries?   Maybe when RW and LW terror groups aren't excused from their crimes because 'they're lone wolves, and not religious'.

How about that, eh?  And please don't start with 'but it doesn't happen as much ...', because really that's irrelevant.   If you are going to condemn one person or group for some action, you can't give a pass to another person or group who does the same thing because they have a different reason or religion.

guest7

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #173 on: September 16, 2017, 11:45:36 am »
Maybe at the point that a Christian who performed an honor killing in Isreal last July is highlighted with screaming headlines, status updates and posts as an example of the barbarity of Christians?  Or when the Jewish and Christian practice of circumcising boys is condemned and it's religious adherents have to undergo 'screening' to prove they are worthy of being admitted into Canada?   How about noting how many parents who horrendously mistreat their children in American and Canada because they are "Christians"?   Or maybe when Christians who disapprove of homosexuality are condemned as roundly as Muslims, because some Christians in Africa and the Middle East kill homosexuals?  How about when we start insisting that Nigerian and Russian Christians should not be welcome in Canada because gays are jailed in both of those predominantly Christian countries?   Maybe when RW and LW terror groups aren't excused from their crimes because 'they're lone wolves, and not religiious'.

How about that, eh?  And please don't start with 'but it doesn't happen as much ...', because really that's irrelevant.   If you are going to condemn one person or group for some action, you can't give a pass to another person or group who does the same thing because they have a different reason or religion.

Actually, the prevelance of an action is not at all irrelevant.  All of the things you mention have been condemned on this site and the other. (well, I don't know about this site.  I haven't been on here as much) I have posted about Christian atrocities, posted against MGM, (not as vociferously, for obvious reasons) posted about barbaric african cultures, including witchcraft and Albino dismembering.  I admit Russian Christian immigration has managed to find its way under my radar.

The point is, when something awful happens, how often it happens is very important.  The idea that Muslim atrocities are posted on because of racism is nonsense.  They are posted on because they are atrocious.  And common.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #174 on: September 16, 2017, 11:49:39 am »
I would agree that by and large, Muslims are more conservative than the general population.   But so are Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, etc., so I don't see Muslim conservatism as any kind of existential threat.

Not an existential threat, just another obstacle against progress. 

Earlier in this thread we were talking about how Megan Murphy's view (that trans people with male physiology shouldn't be in female-only safe spaces) makes her a "radical" in the eyes of the progressives, and how they want to "get" her for not being progressive enough.

Meanwhile the same progressives are all in favor of bringing in tens of thousands more people from countries where people don't think men and women should even pray together, let alone shower together, and where trans people would be imprisoned or worse.

Megan Murphy is the devil incarnate for not being progressive enough on trans rights, while bringing in tens of thousands of immigrants and refugees who for the most part think trans people are an abomination is a great idea that should be encouraged. 

I just don't get it.



I think "large numbers" is relative.  Not all of our 250,000 immigrants to Canada are from "conservative" countries (Middle East, Africa, etc). 

I looked at this a while back and concluded that of the roughly 250,000 there were a bit under 100,000 from countries I viewed as being conservative Muslim nations-- North Africa, East Africa, the Middle East aside from Turkey, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Afghanistan.

Even for those who are from those countries, not all of them are going to be misogynistic or homophobic.   I agree that most will probably have that "man as head of the house" attitude and will disapprove of homosexuality, but most of those will also not be interested in imposing those beliefs on the rest of us.

They might not come to Canada with the idea of turning it into the new Saudi Arabia, but when politicians like Jason Kenney reach out to them and say "hey, we oppose gay people too! let's be friends!" they may well listen. That was the basis of the Conservative Party's "ethnic outreach" efforts about 10-12 years ago. Taking out ads in non-English community papers-- the Sikh newspapers, the Arabic newspapers, promoting a socially conservative message that was well to the right of what the party was willing to say in English.

The problem I see with deciding that because Muslims come from countries which have laws against gays and fail on gender equality, then all Muslims must agree and so we should limit or eliminate their entry into our country is that we fail the woman in SA who wants to wear a miniskirt, we fail the homosexuals who are trying to live safely within their country, we fail the men and women worldwide who are working to reform Islam, whether from outside or inside their Muslim-majority countries.   Instead of giving a battered woman a chance to leave her batterer, we say no - stay where you are until you are just like us.  Instead of offering a safe place for a Muslim person who might be gay - we say no - the risk to us is too great because while you might be ok, your family/friends might not be.    I personally don't want to do that.

I believe that homosexual people living in Muslim countries are treated by Canada as valid refugee claimants. As for the woman in Saudi Arabia who wants to wear a mini-skirt, she's not coming to Canada.  She can't even drive to the airport or leave the house without a male guardian.   Saudi Arabia is a dirt-bag country in so many ways that are so much worse than not being able to wear mini-skirts. There's apparently not much we can do about it.

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #175 on: September 16, 2017, 11:50:02 am »
The point is, when something awful happens, how often it happens is very important.  The idea the Muslim atrocities are posted on because of racism is nonsense.  They are posted on because they are atrocious.  And common.

Bingo.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #176 on: September 16, 2017, 11:55:26 am »
Talking past each other.

Option 1: Blame & Shame Muslims in Canada
Option 2: Stop talking about Islam

Stupid choices.

I don't think I've ever 'blamed' Muslims in Canada. Shame, on the other hand, can be useful in remediation of anti social behaviour. Or if not shame then certainly criticism. Certainly if we take the view of progressives, who declare Muslim reformers as 'Islamophobes' we're never going to encourage Muslims to change their archaic and stupid views of society, values and tolerance. The only way they're going to change is by talking about it and pointing out how backward and intolerable everyone else finds the misogyny and religious chauvinism being taught. And being taught HERE. I have no doubt that Irshad Manji's experience in a Muslim school in Richmond is being duplicated today at other Muslim schools.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #177 on: September 16, 2017, 12:01:52 pm »
I looked at this a while back and concluded that of the roughly 250,000 there were a bit under 100,000 from countries I viewed as being conservative Muslim nations-- North Africa, East Africa, the Middle East aside from Turkey, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Afghanistan.

I agree with pretty much all you've said. I'd just like to point out that it isn't JUST Muslims who have extremely archaic and vicious views of women and gays. We've seen a ton of that in India, as well, a country which is generally acknowledged as among the most misogynistic and racist in the world - not one that thinks much of gays either btw. And India is our number two source country.

My concerns have often been depicted as solely about Muslims but anyone but it's really for any great flood of people with what I view as violently intolerant, anti-Canadian social views, especially when they're supported by deeply held religious beliefs.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #178 on: September 16, 2017, 12:03:35 pm »
More hypberbolic binary choices...

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #179 on: September 16, 2017, 12:06:40 pm »
More hypberbolic binary choices...

I don't know if you meant to communicate something with that but if so... it didn't work very well.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum