Author Topic: Gender Culture  (Read 56098 times)

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #150 on: September 15, 2017, 10:13:04 am »
So you get to just make up whatever wild assumptions you want about how awful they are and I'm supposed to just believe you?

What have I made up? What assumptions have I made which are not logically derived from existing evidence? I've looked at the Muslim world and its values and cultures, looked at the religious extremism, looked at the surveys of Muslim world opinions, and the extreme misogyny of things like FGM, and decided I don't want any part of that. Is my decision illogical in some way?

Have I ever suggested every member of the Muslim world believes the same way, that they all hate Jews, all treat women like cattle, all want a global caliphate?

Nope. My position is, though, that many, even, in some countries, most of them do, according to polls and surveys and behavior, and that given what the government says about the economic success of immigrants based on source country it makes little sense for us to be taking so many immigrants from these areas.

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This might just blow your mind, but not all Muslims are Arab. You might want to digest that.

Yes, but most of the ones who come to Canada are. And as I stated earlier, Malaysia might not be an Arab country but over 90% of the women there have been subjected to FGM as girls. Islamic extremism is growing in Indonesia, as well. Pakistanis aren't Arabs but those seem like waters we should definitely not be fishing in. Yet it is one of our primary source countries.
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #151 on: September 15, 2017, 12:28:47 pm »
You've looked at the Muslim world, have you?

How about you look at the Muslim immigrants and the Canadian-born Muslims here, if you're going to make an argument about our immigration system.

For the umpteenth time, we don't let in just some random sample of Muslims from around the world. There is a lengthy process people go through to get admitted into our country, whether you believe it or not.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #152 on: September 15, 2017, 04:36:33 pm »
You've looked at the Muslim world, have you?

Enough. I think you know I'm not exaggerating, which is why neither you nor any other of the people who get so angry about my positions on this topic ignore my repeated queries to give me a list of Muslim states which have gay pride parades, where women have equal rights, or where non-Muslims are treated equally to Muslims. Because you know there aren't any.

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How about you look at the Muslim immigrants and the Canadian-born Muslims here, if you're going to make an argument about our immigration system.

I look very closely at any sorts of surveys/polls of Muslim Canadian attitudes, and have discussed them frequently. You missed all that?
The desperation of progressives to assure everyone OUR Muslims are different from THEIR Muslims seems to rest on one of two possible beliefs. Either they follow a different Islam than everyone else. Or they don't really pay much attention to Islamic doctrine. I think this comes from the fact progressive themselves are virtually never very religious and certainly don't take moral lessons from any religion, so they presume nobody else does either (except those horrible fundie Christians).

Of course, that doesn't explain why Muslim women are donning burquas and hijabs in ever greater numbers....

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For the umpteenth time, we don't let in just some random sample of Muslims from around the world. There is a lengthy process people go through to get admitted into our country, whether you believe it or not.

Evidence? None. Simply because you believe it does not make it so.

To repeat, to get into our country you apply by mail. You fill out forms. You send in documents and photocopies (some of which may or may not be faked). This is what attests to whether you qualify to immigrate here. The only security screening consists of checking databases to see if you're listed as a criminal or known terrorist. That's it. There is absolutely no screening done to determine a person's suitability in terms of cultural adaptation, religious extremism, or values that are hostile to ours.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 04:38:13 pm by SirJohn »
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #153 on: September 15, 2017, 05:30:15 pm »
There's literally hundreds of thousands of Muslim immigrants in Canada right now. If there was a concerted effort towards violence, you would already be dead. There's not. You're suffering from a moral panic. Muslims are your folk devil and it clearly pisses you off when others are shaking in their boots like you are. They're not because the situation isn't remotely close to how you characterize it.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #154 on: September 15, 2017, 06:18:32 pm »
As an interesting aside. I found myself wondering about thread drift given I seem to be arguing about Muslims in a topic on thread drift. I went and had a look back to see how this thread drifted into yet another 'sir john is horrible because he doesn't love Muslims like we do' thing, and traced it to post 128. When cybercoma inserted a sarcastic post referencing a post I had made elsewhere.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #155 on: September 15, 2017, 06:22:33 pm »
There's literally hundreds of thousands of Muslim immigrants in Canada right now. If there was a concerted effort towards violence, you would already be dead.

No, they would be. Muslim numbers are still low in Canada as a percentage of the population to get really militant. And a big chunk of them immigrated decades ago, before the Islamic world became as intolerant as it is now.

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You're suffering from a moral panic. Muslims are your folk devil and it clearly pisses you off when others are shaking in their boots like you are. They're not because the situation isn't remotely close to how you characterize it.

No, what pisses me off is when dumb people insist on turning the conversation away from whatever we were discussing onto ME, so they can rant about their disapproval of my morality. That being the case, I tend to turn  the subject to THEM and my disapproval of their ignorance and fatuous stupidity.

« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 06:24:04 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

guest4

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #156 on: September 15, 2017, 08:41:56 pm »
I take it you speak Arabic? You know, from meeting them, what's in their minds and souls and hearts because they've openly discussed it all with you? I once had a manager who was very nice. Well, he WAS very nice. But it turned out he was one of those 'adult baby' people. Totally freaking weird! Hadn't a clue!

Working with someone does not give you a hell of a lot of insight into whether they go home and beat their wives, or like to get spanked, or whether they pray daily for an Islamic state and the death of all Jews, or send their 6 year old daughter back 'home' to have her clitoris removed so she doesn't become a ****.

I know, I know, OUR Muslims are COMPLETELY different from all the rest of the world's Muslims because, well.. they came here! So they must be!

Somehow.

This is hilarious from someone who knows the hearts and minds of people he has never spoken to, merely seen on the street or on TV.

Here's an hijabi wearing gay woman who rolls her eyes at people like you: 
https://thequeerness.com/2016/04/14/queer-and-hijabi-its-complicated/

Here's another one .. a girl in a Muslim majority country who decided to wear an hijab at age 14, even though her father said she should wait till she was older; she is also queer.
https://www.bgdblog.org/2014/04/tragic-queer-muslim-story/

Here are 8 more women, all Muslim, all queer, from all over the world.

Yes, I know you will attempt to misrepresent my views so you can keep telling yourself how wrong I am, so here are my qualifying statements:
Islam is generally a misogynistic religion.

Muslim majority countries do not feature equal rights for women or gays.

Finding a few stories about gay Muslim people doesn't change either of the above facts, but what it does do is demonstrate just how wrong you are in your assumptions.







Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #157 on: September 16, 2017, 02:15:12 am »
I know, I know, OUR Muslims are COMPLETELY different from all the rest of the world's Muslims because, well.. they came here! So they must be!

I don't think this is particularly an Islam thing, and more of a "crappy cultures" type thing.   I don't think East African Muslims are any worse than West African Christians, for example.  That's why western Africa has been such fertile ground for US Christian hate-preachers like Scott Lively.

Now, of course most of the Muslims who do arrive in Canada will be from places that are various shades of awful, whereas most of the Christians who arrive here will be from places that are at least slightly civilized.  But that's not explicitly an Islam issue.

 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #158 on: September 16, 2017, 02:50:22 am »
so here are my qualifying statements:
Islam is generally a misogynistic religion.

Muslim majority countries do not feature equal rights for women or gays.

...but you don't get why people are concerned with bringing large numbers of people from places with widespread homophobia and misogyny into Canada?

I expect that we're getting tens of thousands of Rohingyas in the near future.  I'm sure they're highly progressive.


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Offline Omni

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #159 on: September 16, 2017, 07:21:19 am »
...but you don't get why people are concerned with bringing large numbers of people from places with widespread homophobia and misogyny into Canada?

I expect that we're getting tens of thousands of Rohingyas in the near future.  I'm sure they're highly progressive.


 -k
Sounds like a little argus influence to me . tsk tsk.
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guest4

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #160 on: September 16, 2017, 08:19:28 am »
...but you don't get why people are concerned with bringing large numbers of people from places with widespread homophobia and misogyny into Canada?


Perhaps it's the way in which people present the concerns that has me convinced they are not credible. 

Using a survey to "prove" that Muslim Canadians are not integrating into Canada, while denying the parts of the same survey that demonstrate they are, by claiming that the Muslim respondents must have lied about those parts.

Claiming that all Muslims "look and think the same". 

Claiming that Muslims can't and won't change, despite clear evidence that they have and do.

Claims that the government is just itching to bring in Sharia law to impose on all Canadians. 

Claiming that Sharia law is always brutal, when it has many different forms and, especially in secular countries, is often simply dealing with family matters such as divorce and inheritance (and this might be bad enough, but since there is never any discussion beyond "OMG, Sharia - they'll cut off your head if you aren't Muslim" - well, who knows?).

Claiming that M-103 is actually a bill against Free speech.   

Bringing up every misdeed by anyone Muslim, as if non-Muslim Canadians don't do exactly the same kinds of things.   

Claiming that when Muslims get to X%, they "take over", when in actuality there are several examples, worldwide, of Muslims having those numbers and yet not "taking over".

Investigating news stories about "Muslims demand (something terrible)" and finding out the actual situation is nothing like described.

Being invited to "look at what is happening in Europe" and not being able to find credible evidence that what is being claimed is accurate.  Now, maybe it is - this is one area where I remain unsure because while I can find lots of scary headlines, I can't find much in way of what I would consider credible reports.  Still, Europe is quite far away and I may indeed be missing something.   So - for example - while I have no doubt that something happened on New Year's in Germany, I remain unsure if it was coordinated, if it really involved 100s of Muslim immigrants, and if all the incidents were sexual assaults, or if most were robberies.  Same with the report of the concert that was cancelled because of "Muslims":  Something like 12 sexual assaults in a crowd of 30,000 resulted in organizers saying they weren't going to risk women's safety.  Good on them.   Some sources were only too eager to declare this was because of "Muslim refugees".  But were all 12 assaults perpetrated by Muslims - none of the less biased sources claimed they were Muslim.    Do similar assaults never happen in Canada when 10s of thousands of people are gathered?  Why, yes they do - but again, Muslims are not mentioned.  And of course, the claim that "the MSM isn't reporting them because of political correctness" or whatever, just seems like an excuse to believe what one wants to believe, and not really credible either.

So yeah, I'm pretty damn skeptical of a lot of these stories and claims. 


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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #161 on: September 16, 2017, 08:45:20 am »
...but you don't get why people are concerned with bringing large numbers of people from places with widespread homophobia and misogyny into Canada?


 -k

I would agree that by and large, Muslims are more conservative than the general population.   But so are Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, etc., so I don't see Muslim conservatism as any kind of existential threat.

I recognize that domestic violence is an issue with Muslims (and Hindus and Christians and many other religious groups), and that it tends to be higher among immigrant groups (regardless of origin) than among the general population.   In my opinion, domestic violence within the Muslim community can and should be addressed within the wider issue of domestic violence in Canada and within immigrant groups.

I recognize that homophobic attitudes also exist in higher numbers among the Muslim population, but homophobia is not, by any means, limited to Muslims: rednecks all across the country would agree with them.  And again, in my opinion, homophobia should be addressed within Canada for all groups, not just Muslims.


I think "large numbers" is relative.  Not all of our 250,000 immigrants to Canada are from "conservative" countries (Middle East, Africa, etc).   Even for those who are from those countries, not all of them are going to be misogynistic or homophobic.   I agree that most will probably have that "man as head of the house" attitude and will disapprove of homosexuality, but most of those will also not be interested in imposing those beliefs on the rest of us.   Even in Muslim-majority countries where homosexuality is illegal, homosexuals live - their family/friends even know, and do not turn them in so while they may disapprove, most don't disapprove enough to want to harm that person.   As for "misogyny" - that term is somewhat subjective.  By some opinion, every Christian household who has man as head, female as submissive is misogynistic.  By other opinions, the 'good ol' boys' club in corporate culture isn't the least misogynistic - women are kept in lower/female professions because they 'choose' to be there by having babies and other such frivolous behavior. 

This isn't to say that I think there is no misogyny in Islam, because I do - their whole notion that women are entitled to less inheritance or that their word is less credible and similar is pretty disgusting.  Cultural practices like FGM and marrying a woman to her rapist, or blaming a woman for being **** - even more disgusting.  Still, we have laws against that kind of stuff in Canada and while it's true that not everyone will follow the law, it's also true that as a species, humans are more inclined than not to behave within the norms of their society - that inherent attribute is a key component of why we've managed to live in successfully in large groups, in Saudi Arabia or Canada.  There are always outliers, of course, whether it's a woman in SA who wears a miniskirt in public or a man in Canada who kills "his" woman for any reason whatsoever.

The problem I see with deciding that because Muslims come from countries which have laws against gays and fail on gender equality, then all Muslims must agree and so we should limit or eliminate their entry into our country is that we fail the woman in SA who wants to wear a miniskirt, we fail the homosexuals who are trying to live safely within their country, we fail the men and women worldwide who are working to reform Islam, whether from outside or inside their Muslim-majority countries.   Instead of giving a battered woman a chance to leave her batterer, we say no - stay where you are until you are just like us.  Instead of offering a safe place for a Muslim person who might be gay - we say no - the risk to us is too great because while you might be ok, your family/friends might not be.    I personally don't want to do that.



Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #162 on: September 16, 2017, 09:45:49 am »
This is hilarious

A series of cites about a few gay Muslims is somehow supposed to answer all the polls and surveys on Muslim attitudes, not to mention the preponderance of FGM in your favorite, woman friendly Muslim country - Egypt? No, of course not. Even you admit that. I'm not even sure what your post is about then, other than to try to once again argue against the straw man I've denied many times, that I believe ALL Muslims are horrid.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 09:50:46 am by SirJohn »
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #163 on: September 16, 2017, 10:00:28 am »
Perhaps it's the way in which people present the concerns that has me convinced they are not credible.

What, with facts and figures and polls, you mean?

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Using a survey to "prove" that Muslim Canadians are not integrating into Canada, while denying the parts of the same survey that demonstrate they are, by claiming that the Muslim respondents must have lied about those parts.

As I recall, the survey in question was a much softer duplicate of one taken in the UK. Both asked whether Muslims were proud of being Canadians/British, and both returned very high numbers in the affirmative. You suggested this meant they were integrating. However, the British poll also asked questions the Canadian poll didn't, like should homosexuals be imprisoned. Half of British Muslims said they should be. Is there a reason to believe half of Canadian Muslims wouldn't agree?

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Claiming that all Muslims "look and think the same".

Never made any such claim. Although I do believe that devoted Muslims believe in Islam. That seems to bother you endlessly.

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Claiming that Muslims can't and won't change, despite clear evidence that they have and do.

Never made that claim either. I simply pointed out that cultural values reinforced by religion are far more difficult to shed than those which derive from a country left behind.

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Claims that the government is just itching to bring in Sharia law to impose on all Canadians. 

Nonsense.

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Claiming that Sharia law is always brutal

It is. End of discussion. Anyone who believes in Sharia has no place in Canada. Anyone who supports Sharia has no place in Canada. Deport them all, whether they're Muslims or not.

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Claiming that M-103 is actually a bill against Free speech.

No, its a bill that calls for a study which would set the stage for laws against free speech.

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Bringing up every misdeed by anyone Muslim, as if non-Muslim Canadians don't do exactly the same kinds of things.

If I brought up every misdeed by anyone Muslims I wouldn't have time to do anything else but post them 24hrs a day, 7 days a week. 

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Claiming that when Muslims get to X%, they "take over", when in actuality there are several examples, worldwide, of Muslims having those numbers and yet not "taking over".

This, once again, is a figment of your tormented imagination.

Most of your claims are just shrill blathering from a person whose entire view of the subject is governed by her in-laws who are nice to her.
 
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 10:11:35 am by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #164 on: September 16, 2017, 10:07:09 am »
The problem I see with deciding that because Muslims come from countries which have laws against gays and fail on gender equality, then all Muslims must agree and so we should limit or eliminate their entry into our country is that we fail the woman in SA who wants to wear a miniskirt,

I'm not interested in what happens to the woman in SA who wants to wear a miniskirt. This is the major failing all you progressives have on immigration. You regard it as a giant welfare scheme intended to create better lives for the world's poor and downtrodden. It's NOT. It's sole intention is to make life better for Canadians.

There is only one genuine reason for mass immigration, and as tenuous as the support for the belief is, that's to improve our economic well-being. That being the case, why are we bringing in so many people from areas of the world the Canadian government has found produce the least economically successful immigrants? When you add on the cultural issues which make it much harder for Muslims to integrate as well as creating potential dangers for gays and Jews in Canada, and potentially increasing the odds of terrorist events, that adds up, to me, to bypassing this region.

There is no way to argue against the logic of that position so you resort to emotionalisms and personal attacks.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum