Author Topic: Gender Culture  (Read 56304 times)

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guest7

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #630 on: December 02, 2018, 06:51:42 pm »
are you just trying to figure out which scenario would upset me ?  I'm not getting it.

Different things upset different people.  If there's one thing we know from participation in these sites, it's that.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #631 on: December 02, 2018, 07:07:22 pm »
put up the "Yeah it's him" dated tweet ... what you're implying as, 'nine days later'. (protip: just because your 'Irish comedian' tweets on Nov 25... that means diddly about the date of an embedded tweet he includes)



Murphy was active on Twitter until Nov 24, well after the "f--- bull---" Tweet you mistakenly believe got her banned.  The "Yeah it's him" was tweeted on Nov 24.

Your text image, which I notice you haven't even sourced, has either an incomplete or inaccurate timeline.  Give it up. You're just making a fool of yourself.


You seem fascinated by the "Irish comedian" angle. Graham Linehan has been embroiled in the UK debate over changes to the Gender Recognition Act, where he has allied himself with women who are concerned about the impact on safety and privacy. This is how he got connected with Meghan Murphy, and he has been tweeting about her situation and has promised to tweet whatever Murphy sends him.  Linehan is apparently a UK television figure of some profile, and has 30 times more followers as Murphy did, so he has actually brought more attention to her ban than she had when she was free to tweet on her own.


This tweet illustrates Twitter's bizarre thought process on what deserves a ban:

https://twitter.com/Glinner/status/1067102563818983424

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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #632 on: December 02, 2018, 07:37:45 pm »
"scorn, ridicule and especially physical violence "

scorn or ridicule him for what? He doesn't appear to do anything to present as feminine beyond getting a close shave.

How will transphobes even know that they're supposed to hate this guy, when there's no visible evidence that he's trans?

Yeah, but YOU know it.  So, doesn't everyone now ?

You think the kind of thugs who are apparently out there curb-stomping trans folks are reading feminist blogs?

"HEY! That's the tranny I was reading about on AfterEllen!! GET 'IM!"

I think the odds that some violent transphobe will recognize him on the street because some tiny portion of the internet has seen his picture are highly remote.

His name is out there now, and I think it's not out of the realm of possibility that somebody might seek him out to cause him harm of some kind,  but if that happens I think it's far more likely that they would do so because of his expressed interest in approaching pre-pubescent girls to help them insert tampons.   Some people might dislike trans people, but people dislike creepy **** a lot more.

I have no idea what he did.  I made no assumptions but this makes sense.
 
Yes, they may indeed be naive in that case, I suppose. 

-----

I feel like you keep ringing the bell and the bellhop doesn't come.  What are we doing here - are you just trying to figure out which scenario would upset me ?  I'm not getting it.


That's a good mental picture.  ding? ding ding?

To me it seems like you're arguing that people wouldn't abuse gender self-identification because being trans is dangerous and scary. I'm pointing out that that someone using self-identification in bad faith doesn't really need to worry about those things.  If a guy only presents as trans when he wants to go in the locker room at Spa Lady and spends the rest of his life living as male, what risk is he really taking?  If a guy only identifies as female when he's filling out his insurance paperwork, what risk is he actually taking?

You asked why I mentioned Rachel Dolezal's case.  Your view seems to be that if people feel they are something, the civil thing to do is to respect that feeling.  The example of Rachel Dolezal shows that's not always how self-identification is treated.   So why is Rachel Dolezal's self-identification invalid and offensive, while some male person's self-identification as a woman is perfectly acceptable? I'm trying to understand the difference here.


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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #633 on: December 02, 2018, 08:35:41 pm »
It has taken my whole adult life to this point to get somewhat comfortable with the term lesbian.   So watching Riley J Dennis, a 22 year trans person, "mansplain" it to me on her youtube channel is pretty grating.  She explains that if you're a lesbian you should love trans women because they're women and if you don't you're being transphobic, and being hung up on the genitals is unfair because of reasons, and so on. 

(Riley also has another video where she apparently gives lesbians advice on how to pleasure all the fabulous lady-dick they're going to be servicing, but I don't think I'm gonna watch.)

I thought Riley was maybe an outlier or a flake, but apparently not.



I stumbled on this essay by a woman from Scotland. The whole thing is rather long, but I wanted to quote some of her key points here.  The Cole's Notes version is that lesbians are being accused of transphobia and pressured to rebrand as "queer" because "lesbian" is seen as being transphobic and TERFish.

Quote
Love is love, unless you happen to be a lesbian woman – in which case your sexuality will be relentlessly deconstructed under suspicion of being exclusionary.

(...)

Lesbian women are instead encouraged to describe ourselves as queer, a term so broad and nebulous as to be devoid of specific meaning, on the grounds that nobody in possession of a **** is read as being entirely outside of our sexual boundaries.

In a time when acknowledging biological sex is treated as an act of bigotry, homosexuality is automatically problematised – the unforeseen consequences of queer identity politics are wide and far-reaching. Or rather, it would be more accurate to say, lesbian sexuality is made problematic: the idea of women exclusively directing our desires and energies towards one another remains suspect. Somehow, the pattern of men centring men in their lives never receives the same backlash. Lesbians are a threat to the status quo, whether it’s part of heteropatriarchy or queer culture. When lesbians dismiss the idea of taking on a partner with a ****, we are branded “**** fetishists” and “gynephiles” – given that lesbian sexuality is routinely pathologised in queer discourse, just as lesbian sexuality is pathologised by social conservatism, it’s no surprise to me that so many young women succumb to social pressure and drop lesbian in favour of queer. Self-erasure is the price of acceptance.

As queer identity politics would have it, biological women being exclusively interested in being with other women is a sign of bigotry. Let’s not waste paragraphs on equivocation. This world contains more than enough silences around the subject of gender, and it is invariably women who pay the highest price for those silences – in this case, women who love other women. And so I will say it: for lesbians to categorically deny the possibility of taking a partner with a **** is framed as transphobic by queer politics because it does not include transwomen in the sphere of lesbian desire. The inherent lesbophobia of reducing lesbian sexuality to a source of validation is, of course, given a free pass.

(...)

The idea that lesbians are transphobic because our sexual boundaries do not extend to accommodate **** is a phallocentric fallacy. And the pressure on lesbians to redefine those boundaries is frankly terrifying – it rests on an attitude of entitlement towards women’s bodies, an entitlement that is part of patriarchy and now being replicated within queer space. Lesbian women do not exist as sex objects or sources of validation, but self-actualised human beings with desires and boundaries of our own.

Talking about queer politics with gay male friends my age is something of an eye-opener. I am reminded of two things: With men, no is accepted as the closing word. With women, no is treated as the opening of a negotiation. Most gay men in my life are in turns horrified and amused by the notion that the parameters of their sexuality could or should be expected to move in accordance with the dictates of queer politics. Some (the fortunate ones – ignorance here is bliss) are unfamiliar with the rabbit hole of queer theory. Others (the newly initiated) are, unsurprisingly, resistant to the queer problematising of homosexuality. One went so far as to suggest gays, lesbians, and bisexuals break away from the alphabet soup of queer politics and self-organise specifically around the lines of sexuality – given that numerous dykes have been  subject to the TERF witch-hunt for making the same case, it was at once uplifting and depressing to hear a man outside of radical feminism voice the same views without fear of censure.

(...)

...when I check my Twitter notifications, it genuinely takes a moment to work out whether my being a lesbian has offended the alt-right or the queer left. Does it particularly matter? The lesbophobia takes the same format. The hatred of women is identical.

Over Pride, a picture of a smiling transwoman clad in a bloodstained t-shirt proclaiming “I punch TERFs” circulated on social media. The image was captioned “this is what gay liberation looks like.” That those of us living at the intersection of gay identity and womanhood – lesbians – are often branded TERFs purely by virtue of our sexuality makes this claim particularly dubious.



"With men, no is accepted as the closing word. With women, no is treated as the opening of a negotiation."

That's why lesbians alone, among the alphabet soup alliance, are being pressured in this way.


 -k
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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #634 on: December 02, 2018, 08:46:05 pm »
scorn or ridicule him for what? He doesn't appear to do anything to present as feminine beyond getting a close shave.

For pretending to be a woman to save $90 ?

Quote
To me it seems like you're arguing that people wouldn't abuse gender self-identification because being trans is dangerous and scary. I'm pointing out that that someone using self-identification in bad faith doesn't really need to worry about those things.

No.  I'm saying there's a disincentive to doing it.  There are people who will do anything but do we need to worry about them ?

 

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #635 on: December 02, 2018, 08:55:03 pm »
It's interesting that gay men can express doubt about how fast and how far this thing has spread without evident fear, just as conservative men can. In the UK, conservative women who have opposed it or expressed reservations get attacked just as much as gay women, but prominent conservative men who do the same are largely left alone. It seems to me that the harassment is being given to those the harassers know it will impact. Gay women being accused of bigotry and such are much more vulnerable, especially if their public and social life is in the progressive world. But there's not a hell of a lot the transgender set can do to someone like Jacob Rees-Mogg, so they don't even try.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #636 on: December 02, 2018, 08:56:59 pm »
For pretending to be a woman to save $90 ?

You continue to bring that up to brush away the notion anyone would bother for such petty things.
How about pretending to be a woman so you can **** women? Does that sound like better motivation for some?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline TimG

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #637 on: December 02, 2018, 09:09:41 pm »
For pretending to be a woman to save $90 ?
The guy in Alberta had an at fault accident on his record so the savings were over $1000/year. A significant sum for many.
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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #638 on: December 02, 2018, 09:14:12 pm »
It's interesting that gay men can express doubt about how fast and how far this thing has spread without evident fear, just as conservative men can. 

I guess you have never heard of Sky Gilbert.

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #639 on: December 02, 2018, 09:15:22 pm »
You continue to bring that up to brush away the notion anyone would bother for such petty things.
How about pretending to be a woman so you can **** women? Does that sound like better motivation for some?

Yes and I have addressed that issue separately; I don't treat both questions the same.

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #640 on: December 02, 2018, 09:16:18 pm »
The guy in Alberta had an at fault accident on his record so the savings were over $1000/year. A significant sum for many.

 ???

Well, ok.  I find the story odd but not alarming.

Offline waldo

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #641 on: December 02, 2018, 10:49:03 pm »
Murphy was active on Twitter until Nov 24, well after the "f--- bull---" Tweet you mistakenly believe got her banned.  The "Yeah it's him" was tweeted on Nov 24.

Your text image, which I notice you haven't even sourced, has either an incomplete or inaccurate timeline.  Give it up. You're just making a fool of yourself.

yet you're, apparently, unable to present an image of the tweet with that date... even after pointed requests to do so. Wassup, hey!

(note: I didn't attach a date to that perm ban, but did speak to an incident after the "f---bull---" tweet that sources suggest was the 'straw that broke the...'. Again, as I stated: "note: as I read/interpret, after that "f----bull---" tweet, there was one event/exchange before the ultimate perm ban pin was pulled; specifically, TheTwitter removed the verification symbol (blue check mark) from her account. Apparently, after Ms. Murphy tweeted that the 'verification symbol was removedl' from her account... she was perm banned."

bottom-line: these exchanges have helped reinforce that Ms. Murphy has had a long run of offending (to TheTwitter) tweets... with many exchanges with TheTwitterAdmin and multiple suspensions before the ultimate perm ban. Apparently, transparency suffered in your push for her martyrdom!
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #642 on: December 03, 2018, 09:48:17 am »
bottom-line: these exchanges have helped reinforce that Ms. Murphy has had a long run of offending (to TheTwitter) tweets... with many exchanges with TheTwitterAdmin and multiple suspensions before the ultimate perm ban. Apparently, transparency suffered in your push for her martyrdom!

And all Murphy's Twitter suspensions have the same theme: reported by trans activists for "hateful conduct" for "misgendering" someone or for disagreeing that trans-identified men are women.

If that's their policy then so be it, but they've certainly put their thumb on the scale, in contradiction of Jack Dorsey's claim of neutrality.


And as has been pointed out by many people, it's hilarious that "misgendering" and questioning the dogma of trans activists is considered worthy of suspensions and bans on a platform where threats of physical violence and hate speech are routine.




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Offline waldo

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #643 on: December 03, 2018, 10:47:10 am »
And all Murphy's Twitter suspensions have the same theme: reported by trans activists for "hateful conduct" for "misgendering" someone or for disagreeing that trans-identified men are women.

If that's their policy then so be it, but they've certainly put their thumb on the scale, in contradiction of Jack Dorsey's claim of neutrality.

and yet - still no dated tweet from you... colour me shocked; shocked I tells ya! Oh... is this, as you say, you, "conceding the point and moving on"?

notwithstanding the clear pattern of repeated suspensions, your own neutrality in judging TheTwitter isn't at all suspect/coloured - at all!  ;D Apparently, your interpretation of neutrality must be one where TheTwitter ignores repeat offenders and clear violations of established rules. You perceive an affront to "your team"; apparently... you want TheTwitter to be anything but neutral and side for "your team" - yes?

And as has been pointed out by many people, it's hilarious that "misgendering" and questioning the dogma of trans activists is considered worthy of suspensions and bans on a platform where threats of physical violence and hate speech are routine.

here's an update on your example:



the profile platforms are now in scramble mode, particularly with their grandiose failures related to Russian bots/election meddling - the focus on the possibility of regulatory oversight should see more improvements in how they manage their members/content... we'll see.  Of course, there's always a 'human element' involved in reviewing complaints and decision making - and I would expect that element expands when suspensions and bans are considered.

guest7

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #644 on: December 03, 2018, 11:12:07 am »
here's an update on your example:



the profile platforms are now in scramble mode, particularly with their grandiose failures related to Russian bots/election meddling - the focus on the possibility of regulatory oversight should see more improvements in how they manage their members/content... we'll see.  Of course, there's always a 'human element' involved in reviewing complaints and decision making - and I would expect that element expands when suspensions and bans are considered.

"Next I coming over to kikinn Ur Jude Ass"! 

One wonders what they were carefully reviewing. Spelling, maybe?