Author Topic: Gender Culture  (Read 55994 times)

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guest7

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #585 on: December 01, 2018, 10:37:23 am »
No - I'm making a wider point about morality: "Honour systems are abused all the time, but the public sphere absorbs that behaviour and either accepts it or doesn't, in the end."

People will not accept this... if it's unacceptable.

How does the public go about not accepting it?  It seems to me that the public that are affected by this are being fairly vocal about it.

Should all aspects of societal relationships regarding minorities be left up to the public?
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guest7

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #586 on: December 01, 2018, 10:41:22 am »
Perhaps we should just not allow insurance companies to charge rates based on gender, as they have done in the EU.  That way, a 'barrier' is created that will prevent men from changing their gender on paper to gain cheaper insurance rates, and it won't create barriers for those who really do need a rule change.  Perhaps in the other situations under discussion there are also changes that can be made to the system to prevent abuse of rules, rather than the people who legitimately need and benefit from those rules.   I'm not sure what changes might work, but I am coming to agree that submitting mere paperwork to change one's gender on government-issued ID is a bit lax; perhaps a demonstrated commitment to the 'other gender' identity needs to also be proven, and that this commitment must have been apparent for a significant length of time.  Not that someone won't game that, too, at some point. 

Of course, those born intersex and 'assigned' a sex at birth shouldn't have to go through the same onerous procedure given that it was the decision of someone else to impose a visual sexual identity.   Paperwork demonstrating the sex assignment at birth should be available and acceptable for those people to quickly change the gender on government issued ID.  And again, no doubt someone will concoct a way to game that, as well.

Thinking out of the box a bit, perhaps at age 21, all adults should be subjected to a test that determines what arouses them:  naked men, naked women, naked children.  This information could be included in government issued ID, and that could be used to determine access to public places where nudity may occur.

Or, perhaps we could simply change the morality within our society, so that 'nudity' becomes commonplace and not assumed to be a signal of sexual availability or interest.

Absolutely.  I think if one is going to stop being a man and become a woman, or vice versa, it's a big enough deal to require a doctor's note.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #587 on: December 01, 2018, 11:00:31 am »
Pfft.  Stop it with the 'mainstream media is afraid to tell the truth' angle.  We actually have new online media that are willing to lie to make things look WORSE.  It's the opposite of what you say.

And how many ordinary people are exposed to such media?

Quote
And yet you seem to know what their background is.  Look, there's plenty of coverage of such things... the whole "right wing people are scared to speak" is a Trumpian trope that is beneath you.  We had a damn straight-up racist candidate finish 3rd for mayor in Toronto - it's the golden era of far-right opinionating.

First, I'm a news junkie who is semi-retired and has time on my hands. Second, the 'trope'  you speak of is incorrect. Its not right wing people who are afraid to speak, it's the mushy middle who clamp their lips tight lest they cause offense, and of course, the left - which includes all the mainstream media (all the mainstream media are Left in their social views), who are terrified of an accusation of racism or islamophobia or transphobia or whatever. Third, that 'candidate' you spoke of got what, 2% of the vote? And she wasn't even allowed to advertise.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2018, 11:02:42 am by SirJohn »
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #588 on: December 01, 2018, 11:02:14 am »
Stopping Faith Goldy from making speeches about protecting the White Race is a good idea, in my books.

Why? Wouldn't she simply have appeared ridiculous?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #589 on: December 01, 2018, 11:04:43 am »
What is the savings here ?  $91/year ?  If we're assuming they're lying about their status, they have to expose themselves to public ridicule for one thing, and likely have to engage in a prohibitive amount of paperwork.

Who would dare publicly ridicule a transgendered person these days? And it isn't just this, as I said. I pointed out in another thread how Algonquin college has set aside 30% of the seats in highly desirable tech courses for women - who will not have to compete with the hordes of men who want in. A man could simply say he's a woman and claim one.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #590 on: December 01, 2018, 11:06:25 am »
1. How does the public go about not accepting it? 
2. It seems to me that the public that are affected by this are being fairly vocal about it.
3. Should all aspects of societal relationships regarding minorities be left up to the public?

1. Lots of ways.  They complain, they get legislation passed, they boycott, they make noise. 
2. I dunno.  Maybe?  Would you say the 'Body Break' episode went to one side or the other ? Or was there compromise ?  Is the Body Break episode proof that public engagement and discussion does not work ?
3. Well, I would say 'no'.  But they are aren't they ?

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #591 on: December 01, 2018, 11:06:31 am »
Megan Murphy on her twitter ban, in what is becoming my favorite on-line magazine.

On November 15, I woke up to find my Twitter account locked, on account of what the company described as “hateful conduct.” In order to regain access, I was made to delete two tweets from October. Fair enough, you might think. Concern about the tone of discourse on social media has been widespread for years. Certainly, many have argued that Twitter officials should be doing more to discourage the vitriol and violent threats that have become commonplace on their platform.

In this case, however, the notion that my commentary could be construed as “hateful” baffled me. One tweet read, simply, “Men aren’t women,” and the other asked “How are transwomen not men? What is the difference between a man and a transwoman?” That last question is one I’ve asked countless times, including in public speeches, and I have yet to get a persuasive answer. I ask these questions not to spread hate—because I do not hate trans-identified individuals—but rather to make sense of arguments made by activists within that community. Instead of answering such questions, however, these same activists insist that the act of simply asking them is evidence of hatred.



https://quillette.com/2018/11/28/twitters-trans-activist-decree/
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #592 on: December 01, 2018, 11:08:26 am »
And how many ordinary people are exposed to such media?

How many 'ordinary people' subscribe to The Rebel or Facebook ?  Lots of people but your filter of 'ordinary' is hard to discern.

Quote
First, I'm a news junkie who is semi-retired and has time on my hands. Second, the 'trope'  you speak of is incorrect. Its not right wing people who are afraid to speak, it's the mushy middle who clamp their lips tight lest they cause offense, and of course, the left - which includes all the mainstream media (all the mainstream media are Left in their social views), who are terrified of an accusation of racism or islamophobia or transphobia or whatever. Third, that 'candidate' you spoke of got what, 2% of the vote? And she wasn't even allowed to advertise.

She was allowed to advertise but couldn't find anyone to take her money.  So the mainstream people are actually dying to voice right-wing views but are afraid to ?  Still strikes me as paranoid/incorrect sorry.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #593 on: December 01, 2018, 11:09:24 am »
Why? Wouldn't she simply have appeared ridiculous?

There are lots of people being drawn to this stuff.  The idea that public debate will squelch bad ideas has proven incorrect.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #594 on: December 01, 2018, 11:11:03 am »
1. Who would dare publicly ridicule a transgendered person these days?
2. And it isn't just this, as I said. I pointed out in another thread how Algonquin college has set aside 30% of the seats in highly desirable tech courses for women - who will not have to compete with the hordes of men who want in. A man could simply say he's a woman and claim one.
1. That's a ridiculous idea.  People can be criticized, nobody reasonable is saying that's out of bounds.
2. Again - it's an edge case and not worthy of consideration at this point.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #595 on: December 01, 2018, 11:12:18 am »
international attention? Outside of the 'blogosphere', TheGoogle said there were a couple of mainstream references... both opinion pieces appearing in the NYT and Guardian. But... both of those opinion pieces speak more to the U.S. 1st amendment & what the twitter change to their rules/policy (vis-avis banning for targeted misgendering or deadnaming of transgender individuals) means in that context. The Murphy mention is little more than an example reference. In regards free-speech the NYT opinion piece speaks of trans persons viewing the twitter ban as a promotion of free-speech... that they'll speak up more if their existence isn't being questioned.
Uhhh, depending on perspective:



Everyone understands that it's Twitter's right to ban Murphy if they wish.

However it's also being pointed out that it casts doubt on Twitter's claim of political neutrality.  I haven't read the NY Times piece you mention, but your summary seems to indicate they think that Twitter can create more free speech by putting their thumb on one side of the scale.  If that's what's happening here, that certainly contradicts what Jack Dorsey told the US Congress a couple of months ago.

It's also being pointed out how little it took for Murphy to get banned from a platform that is absolutely rife with hate speech and threats of violence.

Twitter's official position is that Murphy was banned for "misgendering" "JY"...  this is a person who still identifies themselves as Jonathan and presents themselves with a look that looks more or less like Jared from Subway, but Murphy was banned for referring to them as "him".

Trans activists claim that misgendering someone is real violence, so Murphy's ban would be justified in their eyes. Meanwhile trans people talk about literal violence on Twitter with impunity. 


 -k
« Last Edit: December 01, 2018, 11:14:58 am by kimmy »
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guest7

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #596 on: December 01, 2018, 11:13:54 am »
1. Lots of ways.  They complain, they get legislation passed, they boycott, they make noise. 
2. I dunno.  Maybe?  Would you say the 'Body Break' episode went to one side or the other ? Or was there compromise ?  Is the Body Break episode proof that public engagement and discussion does not work ?
3. Well, I would say 'no'.  But they are aren't they ?

1) What if they don't?  Should there be no government involvement in societal relationships without a certain level of public outcry?
2) I'd have to read about that.
3) See 1)
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #597 on: December 01, 2018, 11:27:22 am »
1. That's a ridiculous idea.  People can be criticized, nobody reasonable is saying that's out of bounds.
2. Again - it's an edge case and not worthy of consideration at this point.

You reckon without the fanaticism of progressives.

In many progressive corners of academic and online life, it now is taken as cant that anyone who rejects transgender ideology—which is based on the theory that a mystical “gender identity” exists within us, akin to a soul—may be targeted with the most juvenile and vicious attacks. “Punch TERFs and Nazis” has become a common Twitter tagline, as is the demand that “TERFs” be “sent to the gulag.” (This latter suggestion was earnestly defended in a thread authored by students who run the official Twitter account of the LGBTQ+ Society at a British university. The authors went on to say that the gulag model would, in fact, comprise “a compassionate, non-violent course of action” to deal with “TERFs” and “anti-trans bigots” who must be “re-educat[ed].”)

While it might comfort some to view these threats as performative or theoretical, that isn’t always the case. On May 29, a lesbian named Taelor Furry was beat up outside the Grey Fox Pub, a gay bar in St. Louis, Mo. Her attackers were queer-identified women who had accused Furry of being a “TERF.”

In April, a trans-identified biological male who goes by the name “Tara Wolf” was convicted of assault after beating 60-year-old Maria MacLauchlan, who had gathered with other women at Speaker’s Corner in London’s Hyde Park to discuss mooted gender-identity legislation. Prior to the gathering, this champion of progressive ideals had posted on Facebook, asking where the event would be taking place, as the assailant wanted to “**** some TERFs up.”

At this year’s Pride March in Montreal, biological males who identify as women led the parade, carrying a banner reading, “Transwomen first/Never again last.” One participant carried a sign with the words, “Begone TERF,” as if he were summoning his mystical powers to cast a hex on we TERFy witches. At Dyke Marches, lesbians who express reservations about making themselves sexually available to suitors who just happen to have penises are now commonly screamed at.

In Vancouver, Canada, where I live, a group of lesbians attended this year’s Dyke March wearing t-shirts with the word “Lesbian” written overtop a drawing of a uterus, and carrying signs featuring their “lesbian heroes.” Before the march began, they were approached by two members of the Vancouver Dyke March board, who told them they could not participate while wearing these t-shirts and carrying these placards, as they were “trans-exclusionary.” They also were told that if any of their signs featured the venus symbol (which represents “woman”) or “XX,” symbolizing the fact that females have two of the same kind of sex chromosome, they would have to remove them. The group declined to follow these instructions, but joined the march anyway. As the women walked on, they were surrounded by trans activists, who shouted “TERF bigots,” “Transwomen are women,” “This is an inclusive march,” and, “There is no room for hate at the Dyke March.” One trans-identified male-bodied individual ran through their group repeatedly, yelling “Get your ‘**** TERF’ pins!” at the women. (Afterwards, the Dyke March board published a statement, labeling the women “TERFs” and “a hate group”: The Vancouver Dyke March, they said, is “upset, angry, and disappointed by the actions of those people who sought to reject and exclude valued members of our communities, including trans folks.”)
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #598 on: December 01, 2018, 11:27:40 am »
What if they don't?  Should there be no government involvement in societal relationships without a certain level of public outcry?
 

 What if - in a democracy - people really don't like something and they do nothing about it ?  I think you can answer that.  Should there be no government involvement without outcry ?  I would say the government can prioritize things and should, even without public interest.  Again - you are asking really obvious questions.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #599 on: December 01, 2018, 11:30:50 am »
You reckon without the fanaticism of progressives.

A lot of this discussion involves you shuffling the deck constantly.

We're talking mostly about the 'public' and media viewed/consumed by the public.  Now you are taking us back onto campus...

Let's simplify this: I say that if 'THE' public doesn't like something, they will say so.  The idea that the emergence of trans rights, or Islamic terrorism destroys our system public dialogue and necessitates general alarm isn't true, IMO, from the evidence I have seen.