Author Topic: Gender Culture  (Read 56062 times)

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Offline waldo

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #570 on: November 30, 2018, 01:54:46 pm »
Meghan Murphy's ban from Twitter has attracted international attention, and the backstory behind it is easily discoverable.  Do you really think it's likely that something like this has received international attention, yet reporters in Vancouver are unaware of this situation going on right in their back yard?

I strongly doubt that.

international attention? Outside of the 'blogosphere', TheGoogle said there were a couple of mainstream references... both opinion pieces appearing in the NYT and Guardian. But... both of those opinion pieces speak more to the U.S. 1st amendment & what the twitter change to their rules/policy (vis-avis banning for targeted misgendering or deadnaming of transgender individuals) means in that context. The Murphy mention is little more than an example reference. In regards free-speech the NYT opinion piece speaks of trans persons viewing the twitter ban as a promotion of free-speech... that they'll speak up more if their existence isn't being questioned.
Uhhh, depending on perspective:



The only Canadian coverage I've seen on the "JY" situation is this one from August, which takes at face value his claim of being a woman:
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/not-for-men-sorry-transgender-woman-files-human-rights-complaint-after-being-denied-brazilian-wax?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1534984166

e.g. https://theprovince.com/news/canada/b-c-transgender-woman-who-was-denied-brazilian-wax-job-withdraws-human-rights-complaint/wcm/c9db76c0-9770-4bd9-86fb-da911f3857d8 ----- seems to have appeared in the dozen+ dailies across Canada (those within Postmedia world)
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #571 on: November 30, 2018, 03:04:37 pm »
You try to pull your little fast ones and suggest that a Muslim is "involved" in a murder if they happen to be the one murdered and assume it must somehow be their fault, and not potentially a hate crime. So I think we know who is "stupid and lazy". Both typically accompany bigotry.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/city-homicides-for-2016-a-list-of-the-24


All I said was that a huge number of the street shootings involve Muslims, mostly Somalians. And they do. Mostly it's gang members shooting other gang members, so yeah, when the guy shot is a Muslim, it's mostly because he's a gang member.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #572 on: November 30, 2018, 03:07:10 pm »
international attention? Outside of the 'blogosphere', TheGoogle said there were a couple of mainstream references... both opinion pieces appearing in the NYT and Guardian. But... both of those opinion pieces speak more to the U.S. 1st amendment & what the twitter change to their rules/policy (vis-avis banning for targeted misgendering or deadnaming of transgender individuals) means in that context. The Murphy mention is little more than an example reference. In regards free-speech the NYT opinion piece speaks of trans persons viewing the twitter ban as a promotion of free-speech... that they'll speak up more if their existence isn't being questioned.
Uhhh, depending on perspective:

More pretty pictures trying to make up for a lack of argument.
When both sides get to speak there's freedom of speech. Anyone who thinks freedom of speech means they get to talk and others don't get to disagree is the ****.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #573 on: November 30, 2018, 03:33:17 pm »

All I said was that a huge number of the street shootings involve Muslims, mostly Somalians. And they do. Mostly it's gang members shooting other gang members, so yeah, when the guy shot is a Muslim, it's mostly because he's a gang member.

If you actually read the facts in the article you will see you are wrong. The majority of the people who were charged with murder in this string of killings were not Muslims.

Offline waldo

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #574 on: November 30, 2018, 03:40:39 pm »
More pretty pictures trying to make up for a lack of argument.
When both sides get to speak there's freedom of speech. Anyone who thinks freedom of speech means they get to talk and others don't get to disagree is the ****.

c'mon... tonight's bingo night - get your mind on the game!

guest7

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #575 on: November 30, 2018, 06:29:16 pm »
I have to say that's pretty much my favourite XKCD cartoon.  (along with the "someone on the internet is wrong" one)

As long as it's okay for people to freely state who they believe to be **** I don't see a problem. 
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #576 on: November 30, 2018, 08:20:58 pm »
As long as it's okay for people to freely state who they believe to be **** I don't see a problem.

The problem is the people who use memes like this are the ones who block doors, and pull fire alarms, and invade lectures and talks to scream abuse and blow horns and whistles, and commit acts of sabotage and call in bomb threats. They actually ARE ****, not the people they're preventing from speaking.

I take it as a given that if you're so furious about someone who is going to talk that you want to stop them from talking, then you probably suspect they are way smarter than you are and your pathetic attempt to challenge them will only be met by public ridicule.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

guest7

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #577 on: November 30, 2018, 08:33:00 pm »
The problem is the people who use memes like this are the ones who block doors, and pull fire alarms, and invade lectures and talks to scream abuse and blow horns and whistles, and commit acts of sabotage and call in bomb threats. They actually ARE ****, not the people they're preventing from speaking.

I take it as a given that if you're so furious about someone who is going to talk that you want to stop them from talking, then you probably suspect they are way smarter than you are and your pathetic attempt to challenge them will only be met by public ridicule.

Oh, I agree.  They're complete and utter ****.  Mindless poltroons without a brain cell between them with which to formulate an argument, so instead they throw up a safe space, plug their ears and shove a broomstick up their arses in order to reach the proper level of outrage.  I would definitely show them the door.

If they hurt anyone, they should be charged, of course. 
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #578 on: December 01, 2018, 08:12:33 am »
Our society could not function without the fact that most people, no matter what their politics, do the right thing. However, you are confusing the fact that people will follow rules and laws even if not forced to and expecting people to not take advantage of rules.

No - you are missing my point.  Whether or not 'rules' exist, informal moral customs exist and are enforced culturally by all political types.  You don't need to pass laws to prevent people from abusing the 'leave a penny/take a penny' jar.  Public morality can handle that.

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  For example, changing gender to get lower insurance rates is a perfectly rational use of the rules yet it was not intended. Changing gender to get access to places for sexual gratification is another. At some point the potential for abuse is so large that some limits have to be put in place even if that means creating barriers for people who legitimately needed the rule change.

As I said in my previous post: morality exists.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #579 on: December 01, 2018, 08:43:26 am »
They're certainly aware of it.  Meghan Murphy's ban from Twitter has attracted international attention, and the backstory behind it is easily discoverable.  The senator-elect from Missouri even tweeted about Murphy's ban in challenging Twitter's claim that they're not politically biased. I've seen articles from the US, Australia, and England in regard to Meghan Murphy.   The website "AfterEllen", which is *the* lesbian website, reported on the Meghan Murphy ban and described the"JY" situation in some detail. Do you really think it's likely that something like this has received international attention, yet reporters in Vancouver are unaware of this situation going on right in their back yard?

Not the mainstream media, but the mainstream.  John and Mary Q. Public. 

*the* Lesbian website ?  That would mean millions or at least hundreds of thousands would go there wouldn't it ?  As such - what did the lesbians think ?

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Wait, are you suggesting that cheating on your taxes or shoplifting is more or less equivalent to being confronted by a naked pervert while you're showering?

No - I'm making a wider point about morality: "Honour systems are abused all the time, but the public sphere absorbs that behaviour and either accepts it or doesn't, in the end."

People will not accept this... if it's unacceptable.



The only Canadian coverage I've seen on the "JY" situation is this one from August, which takes at face value his claim of being a woman:
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/not-for-men-sorry-transgender-woman-files-human-rights-complaint-after-being-denied-brazilian-wax?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1534984166

Wait, are you suggesting that cheating on your taxes or shoplifting is more or less equivalent to being confronted by a naked pervert while you're showering?

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Body Blitz quietly changed their policy. They're no longer a clothing optional facility.

And - what do you think of that ?

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US case involving a homeless shelter:

https://abc30.com/homeless-women-harassed-in-shower-lawsuit-says/3514544/

I bet those women feel like it was a real problem.


It sounds like the mainstream is starting to wake up.  That's a local ABC station right ?  We're talking about whether 'activists' and such types are going to be able to ensconce rights victories that are unacceptable to the mainstream.   I think it's still early days to say this is going to happen.  They are still putting bathroom restriction bills on the ballot in the US, and proposing legislation in state assemblies.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #580 on: December 01, 2018, 08:46:01 am »
Why WOULDN'T you change your 'gender' when there are no drawbacks or costs? You can get preferential pricing, preferential hiring, preferential seating in university classes without having to compete against men... what's the downside again? You don't even have to dress like a woman.

What is the savings here ?  $91/year ?  If we're assuming they're lying about their status, they have to expose themselves to public ridicule for one thing, and likely have to engage in a prohibitive amount of paperwork.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #581 on: December 01, 2018, 08:52:43 am »
Given that the Left has adopted transrights as the new holy grail, most of the mainstream media is terrified to go anywhere near any story of trans rights activists being abusive and stupid, much less violent, or of people who claim to be transgendered turning out to be perverts.

Pfft.  Stop it with the 'mainstream media is afraid to tell the truth' angle.  We actually have new online media that are willing to lie to make things look WORSE.  It's the opposite of what you say.

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I have, for example, pointed out any number of times that almost all the shootings in Ottawa, when names become public, seem to involve Muslims, esp Somalians. Given the amount of press attention we've gotten for the shootings and murders, it would be perfectly normal for someone in the media to at least talk about this. But there hasn't been a peep. Everyone knows it. Whenever this comes up in conversation, or in the comment pages of local media, people allude to it (you can't actually say in the comment sections or your comment will be deleted).

And yet you seem to know what their background is.  Look, there's plenty of coverage of such things... the whole "right wing people are scared to speak" is a Trumpian trope that is beneath you.  We had a damn straight-up racist candidate finish 3rd for mayor in Toronto - it's the golden era of far-right opinionating.

 
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #582 on: December 01, 2018, 09:01:21 am »

I take it as a given that if you're so furious about someone who is going to talk that you want to stop them from talking, then you probably suspect they are way smarter than you are and your pathetic attempt to challenge them will only be met by public ridicule.

Stopping Faith Goldy from making speeches about protecting the White Race is a good idea, in my books. 

guest4

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #583 on: December 01, 2018, 09:30:25 am »
That is why it is necessary to ask whenever a rule change is made is how incentives will be created for people to follow the rules to maximize their personal benefit. For example, changing gender to get lower insurance rates is a perfectly rational use of the rules yet it was not intended. Changing gender to get access to places for sexual gratification is another. At some point the potential for abuse is so large that some limits have to be put in place even if that means creating barriers for people who legitimately needed the rule change.

Perhaps we should just not allow insurance companies to charge rates based on gender, as they have done in the EU.  That way, a 'barrier' is created that will prevent men from changing their gender on paper to gain cheaper insurance rates, and it won't create barriers for those who really do need a rule change.  Perhaps in the other situations under discussion there are also changes that can be made to the system to prevent abuse of rules, rather than the people who legitimately need and benefit from those rules.   I'm not sure what changes might work, but I am coming to agree that submitting mere paperwork to change one's gender on government-issued ID is a bit lax; perhaps a demonstrated commitment to the 'other gender' identity needs to also be proven, and that this commitment must have been apparent for a significant length of time.  Not that someone won't game that, too, at some point. 

Of course, those born intersex and 'assigned' a sex at birth shouldn't have to go through the same onerous procedure given that it was the decision of someone else to impose a visual sexual identity.   Paperwork demonstrating the sex assignment at birth should be available and acceptable for those people to quickly change the gender on government issued ID.  And again, no doubt someone will concoct a way to game that, as well.

Thinking out of the box a bit, perhaps at age 21, all adults should be subjected to a test that determines what arouses them:  naked men, naked women, naked children.  This information could be included in government issued ID, and that could be used to determine access to public places where nudity may occur.

Or, perhaps we could simply change the morality within our society, so that 'nudity' becomes commonplace and not assumed to be a signal of sexual availability or interest.


Offline TimG

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #584 on: December 01, 2018, 10:09:06 am »
I'm not sure what changes might work, but I am coming to agree that submitting mere paperwork to change one's gender on government-issued ID is a bit lax; perhaps a demonstrated commitment to the 'other gender' identity needs to also be proven, and that this commitment must have been apparent for a significant length of time.
Of course we could simply say that government ID has nothing to with with gender and only denotes the biological sex that can be proven with a scientific test. People who are biologically ambiguous would be the only ones allowed to change their biological sex after submitting the appropriate supporting documentation.

We also need to make it clear that when society allows segregation based on biological sex and/or gender that it is up to the organization that provides the segregated services to decide whether the segregation is based on biological sex rather than gender. i.e. if a organization says change rooms are for biological women only then transgender will have to accept they are not welcome.

What annoys me the most about the debate is the rank hypocrisy from transgender activists. On one hand they want everyone to accept that gender and biological sex are different but on the other hand they demand that governments punish people that want to treat biological sex as different from gender if that means transgender can't get access to facilities/programs intended for people of a particular biological sex.