Author Topic: Gender Culture  (Read 56026 times)

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Offline TimG

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #555 on: November 29, 2018, 10:02:16 pm »
They're creating a system that's tailor made to be abused, and it's going to be abused. It already is being abused.
Alberta man changes gender to get reduced insurance rates:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/change-gender-identification-insurance-alberta-1.4754416

This is just the tip of the iceberg. The problem with a lot of well meaning people is they never consider the fact that people will abuse whatever system is put in place so you can never change rules without considering the potential for abuse. Simply dismissing the potential for abuse is naive.

Offline Omni

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #556 on: November 29, 2018, 10:17:32 pm »
Alberta man changes gender to get reduced insurance rates:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/change-gender-identification-insurance-alberta-1.4754416

This is just the tip of the iceberg. The problem with a lot of well meaning people is they never consider the fact that people will abuse whatever system is put in place so you can never change rules without considering the potential for abuse. Simply dismissing the potential for abuse is naive.

"Tip of the iceberg"? good god give us a break! I doubt there is a wave of people faking their identity to save $91 bucks a month. You wanna real project, go after Canadian tax dogers who hide the money off shore and cheat the tax man in the order of $14 Billion/year.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 10:19:48 pm by Omni »
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #557 on: November 30, 2018, 04:18:56 am »
So... which ones specifically ?  You seemed to be saying that there were people supporting this person's case.

I have yet to see any trans rights activists address this situation in the slightest.  But they're demanding an honor-system approach to gender self-identification, and this "JY" situation is an inevitable result to an honor-system approach. So what is there for them to say, other than "well you gotta break a few eggs"?

Has there ever been an honor-system anything that wasn't abused by dishonorable people?



I also have yet to see any mainstream media coverage of the situation. I assume they're afraid of being deemed transphobic.

Aren't you saying that Incels in drag will soon be inundating teenage girls in change rooms ?  Or ...

I don't think I said "inundating" or specified teenage girls in particular.

But yes. Create a system that's begging to be abused, and people are going to abuse it, and we already know it's being abused.

 
Because there's no scale to it.  As I said, if this is one of those things where a single case upsets you then I understand your concern.

This isn't a single case, this is just the latest case.  We don't yet know to what degree it's going to be abused, but we know that it's already happening.

 -k
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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #558 on: November 30, 2018, 06:42:54 am »
The problem with a lot of well meaning people is they never consider the fact that people will abuse whatever system is put in place so you can never change rules without considering the potential for abuse. Simply dismissing the potential for abuse is naive.
Exactly right.  I am a typical L/liberal in that I am too trusting and I recognize this.  As SJ has posted, it's a personality type that may left-of-centres share.

To my mind, our evolving collective view of ourselves happens due to a tough dialogue between my mindset and the opposite one.  You will never hear me say conservatives need to be eliminated.

For the case in question, the system can either sustain an honour system or it can't.  Part of the reason why the system is sustainable is that morality exists.  Both liberals and conservatives have morality.

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #559 on: November 30, 2018, 07:01:37 am »
I have yet to see any trans rights activists address this situation in the slightest.  But they're demanding an honor-system approach to gender self-identification, and this "JY" situation is an inevitable result to an honor-system approach. So what is there for them to say, other than "well you gotta break a few eggs"?

Has there ever been an honor-system anything that wasn't abused by dishonorable people?

Ok.  I take your word for it.  But we're also saying that the mainstream isn't aware of the system either at the moment right ? 

Honour systems are abused all the time, but the public sphere absorbs that behaviour and either accepts it or doesn't, in the end.  People cheat EI all the time, cheat on taxes, white collar crime, shoplifting.  Acceptable ?  Well mostly yes.

Now compare to: Stealing poppy boxes, parking in handicapped parking, or (downtown Toronto) stealing a bike.  All of a sudden a crime that is equal in the law is seen as much worse. 

I have to say that guys lying about their gender to dress as women, to get into change rooms seems like it would happen infrequently.  And isn't the main issue behaviour ?  Anybody leering or approaching anybody in a change room would normally register a complaint no ?

If people don't want to see penises in change rooms, isn't it an option to demand no nudity in open spaces ?

Burning Man is a crazy and open party in the desert but having sex in public is pretty much a no-no. It's called public lewdness and not allowed.  For that matter, public NUDITY isn't allowed still. 

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I also have yet to see any mainstream media coverage of the situation. I assume they're afraid of being deemed transphobic.

Or, this is just outrage-bait and not enough of a story.  How much did the CBC cover the war on Christmas ?

 
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I don't think I said "inundating" or specified teenage girls in particular. 

I know. I'm painting your words as extreme, and am doing so insincerely.  I realize your concerns are rooted in reality, but I am also trying to show how perspectives and wording can paint things as being ok-vs-extreme.


 
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This isn't a single case, this is just the latest case.  We don't yet know to what degree it's going to be abused, but we know that it's already happening.

Latest case in what jurisdiction ?  I believe more than a few cases will be noticed if it happens in the same area.

https://www.google.ca/search?ei=VDQBXOLkIenm_QaptLHQDA&q=toronto+trans++%27body+blitz%27&oq=toronto+trans++%27body+blitz%27&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i8i30.7404.7404..7977...0.0..0.68.68.1......0....1..gws-wiz.bxqQ81SY-Tc

Body Blitz happened over a year ago and nothing since.  By 'nothing' I mean nothing on the web.  It strikes me that these are not real problems for most people, but more like legal and human rights test cases.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #560 on: November 30, 2018, 09:25:38 am »
I posted an article not that long ago here with several such cases, including a mother in the UK who was lectured by the school when she complained that her 13 year old daughter was uncomfortable sharing a shower with a 'girl' who had a **** - which was often erect as 'she' stared at the other girls. Instead of paying any attention to her complaint they wanted her and her daughter to get counselling.

I was trying to find the Montreal one where the guy said he was trans to get into a women's shelter and assaulted a woman. 

But then, you know how those menstruaters are...
Yes, that was the term the Guardian settled on for describing women who don't have penises, before, apparently, ridicule and abuse got them to change it. The more popular word going around there is womxn.

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/in-england-womxn-is-in-as-activists-try-to-replace-word-woman-in-the-name-of-inclusiveness

Menstruators...   That's ...  I guess not quite as bad as the "bleeders" and "roasties" that trans women and incels use.  It's still pretty gross and insulting.  Perhaps Guardian employees should be referred to as "defecators" and "people with sphincters" henceforth.

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline TimG

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #561 on: November 30, 2018, 09:51:57 am »
For the case in question, the system can either sustain an honour system or it can't.  Part of the reason why the system is sustainable is that morality exists.  Both liberals and conservatives have morality.
Our society could not function without the fact that most people, no matter what their politics, do the right thing. However, you are confusing the fact that people will follow rules and laws even if not forced to and expecting people to not take advantage of rules. A good analogy is the tax system where people constantly seek ways to reduce their taxes by following the rules which sometimes have loop holes. When the tax dept closes these loop holes the people who used them while they were there did not do anything wrong.

That is why it is necessary to ask whenever a rule change is made is how incentives will be created for people to follow the rules to maximize their personal benefit. For example, changing gender to get lower insurance rates is a perfectly rational use of the rules yet it was not intended. Changing gender to get access to places for sexual gratification is another. At some point the potential for abuse is so large that some limits have to be put in place even if that means creating barriers for people who legitimately needed the rule change.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 09:57:04 am by TimG »

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #562 on: November 30, 2018, 10:12:59 am »
Ok.  I take your word for it.  But we're also saying that the mainstream isn't aware of the system either at the moment right ? 

They're certainly aware of it.  Meghan Murphy's ban from Twitter has attracted international attention, and the backstory behind it is easily discoverable.  The senator-elect from Missouri even tweeted about Murphy's ban in challenging Twitter's claim that they're not politically biased. I've seen articles from the US, Australia, and England in regard to Meghan Murphy.   The website "AfterEllen", which is *the* lesbian website, reported on the Meghan Murphy ban and described the"JY" situation in some detail. Do you really think it's likely that something like this has received international attention, yet reporters in Vancouver are unaware of this situation going on right in their back yard?

I strongly doubt that.

The only Canadian coverage I've seen on the "JY" situation is this one from August, which takes at face value his claim of being a woman:
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/not-for-men-sorry-transgender-woman-files-human-rights-complaint-after-being-denied-brazilian-wax?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1534984166

Honour systems are abused all the time, but the public sphere absorbs that behaviour and either accepts it or doesn't, in the end.  People cheat EI all the time, cheat on taxes, white collar crime, shoplifting.  Acceptable ?  Well mostly yes.

Now compare to: Stealing poppy boxes, parking in handicapped parking, or (downtown Toronto) stealing a bike.  All of a sudden a crime that is equal in the law is seen as much worse. 

Wait, are you suggesting that cheating on your taxes or shoplifting is more or less equivalent to being confronted by a naked pervert while you're showering?

Latest case in what jurisdiction ?  I believe more than a few cases will be noticed if it happens in the same area.

https://www.google.ca/search?ei=VDQBXOLkIenm_QaptLHQDA&q=toronto+trans++%27body+blitz%27&oq=toronto+trans++%27body+blitz%27&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i8i30.7404.7404..7977...0.0..0.68.68.1......0....1..gws-wiz.bxqQ81SY-Tc

Body Blitz happened over a year ago and nothing since.  By 'nothing' I mean nothing on the web.  It strikes me that these are not real problems for most people, but more like legal and human rights test cases.

Body Blitz quietly changed their policy. They're no longer a clothing optional facility.

US case involving a homeless shelter:

https://abc30.com/homeless-women-harassed-in-shower-lawsuit-says/3514544/

I bet those women feel like it was a real problem.


 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #563 on: November 30, 2018, 10:56:03 am »
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Wait, are you suggesting that cheating on your taxes or shoplifting is more or less equivalent to being confronted by a naked pervert while you're showering?

It’s worse than that...   it would be the equivalent of the shoplifter being caught, but told by the human rights tribunal that they have a right to shoplift and given a monetary award for being stopped from shoplifting by the shop owner.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #564 on: November 30, 2018, 12:29:12 pm »
"Tip of the iceberg"? good god give us a break! I doubt there is a wave of people faking their identity to save $91 bucks a month.

Why WOULDN'T you change your 'gender' when there are no drawbacks or costs? You can get preferential pricing, preferential hiring, preferential seating in university classes without having to compete against men... what's the downside again? You don't even have to dress like a woman.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #565 on: November 30, 2018, 12:36:17 pm »
Ok.  I take your word for it.  But we're also saying that the mainstream isn't aware of the system either at the moment right ? 

Given that the Left has adopted transrights as the new holy grail, most of the mainstream media is terrified to go anywhere near any story of trans rights activists being abusive and stupid, much less violent, or of people who claim to be transgendered turning out to be perverts.

I have, for example, pointed out any number of times that almost all the shootings in Ottawa, when names become public, seem to involve Muslims, esp Somalians. Given the amount of press attention we've gotten for the shootings and murders, it would be perfectly normal for someone in the media to at least talk about this. But there hasn't been a peep. Everyone knows it. Whenever this comes up in conversation, or in the comment pages of local media, people allude to it (you can't actually say in the comment sections or your comment will be deleted).

The media, on the whole, are extremely PC, and will not touch stories which might, as they put it 'give ammunition to racists/homophobics/transophobics/islamophobics,etc". That's why, for the most part, we get happy-happy stories about refugees, not sad ones, and why trans rights are always mentioned in a positive light.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #566 on: November 30, 2018, 12:50:39 pm »
It’s worse than that...   it would be the equivalent of the shoplifter being caught, but told by the human rights tribunal that they have a right to shoplift and given a monetary award for being stopped from shoplifting by the shop owner.

Isn't that basically the same as this, from a cite I posted a short time back?


Your 11-year-old granddaughter comes home from school upset. Changing after gym, another girl stood watching her undress and playing with her ****. (The girl in question is transgender, so yes, she has a ****.) When your family complains to the school, what happens?
...
In the second, it’s not the girl with a **** who has a problem, it’s the girl without one. She and her parents have wrongly assumed the child with the **** is ‘not a real girl’. That error should be ‘challenged through training and awareness raising’ so your granddaughter is comfortable with her classmate.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #567 on: November 30, 2018, 12:55:39 pm »
Given that the Left has adopted transrights as the new holy grail, most of the mainstream media is terrified to go anywhere near any story of trans rights activists being abusive and stupid, much less violent, or of people who claim to be transgendered turning out to be perverts.

I have, for example, pointed out any number of times that almost all the shootings in Ottawa, when names become public, seem to involve Muslims, esp Somalians. Given the amount of press attention we've gotten for the shootings and murders, it would be perfectly normal for someone in the media to at least talk about this. But there hasn't been a peep. Everyone knows it. Whenever this comes up in conversation, or in the comment pages of local media, people allude to it (you can't actually say in the comment sections or your comment will be deleted).

The media, on the whole, are extremely PC, and will not touch stories which might, as they put it 'give ammunition to racists/homophobics/transophobics/islamophobics,etc". That's why, for the most part, we get happy-happy stories about refugees, not sad ones, and why trans rights are always mentioned in a positive light.

Are you spreading a little more of your xenophobic fake news again?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/canadian-mass-murders-1.3958772

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #568 on: November 30, 2018, 01:00:38 pm »
Are you spreading a little more of your xenophobic fake news again?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/canadian-mass-murders-1.3958772


Why is it that even on the rare times you actually include a cite it usually winds up having absolutely nothing to do with what anyone is talking about? Is it that you're lazy or stupid, or both?
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Offline Omni

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #569 on: November 30, 2018, 01:13:13 pm »

Why is it that even on the rare times you actually include a cite it usually winds up having absolutely nothing to do with what anyone is talking about? Is it that you're lazy or stupid, or both?

You try to pull your little fast ones and suggest that a Muslim is "involved" in a murder if they happen to be the one murdered and assume it must somehow be their fault, and not potentially a hate crime. So I think we know who is "stupid and lazy". Both typically accompany bigotry.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/city-homicides-for-2016-a-list-of-the-24