Author Topic: Gender Culture  (Read 56021 times)

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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #525 on: November 28, 2018, 10:54:59 am »
Says who? The HRC is a...

I was talking about THE system, not any particular subsystem.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #526 on: November 28, 2018, 11:15:05 am »
I was talking about THE system, not any particular subsystem.

You speak as if the system is flawless.  It’s clearly broken if the idiot who wants his balls shaved can use it to their benefit. 
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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #527 on: November 28, 2018, 07:44:33 pm »
You speak as if the system is flawless.   

Let me requote myself:

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Overall, it works but there are lots of things that don't make sense along the way.

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #528 on: November 28, 2018, 07:47:32 pm »

"The mushies" are nowhere in sight.  The only people talking about this are radical feminists, some far-right websites, and a lawyer who compared the rainbow flag to the swastika and the hammer and sickle.   Not a peep from any mainstream news source or commentator or platform about any of this.

Why should the mushies care though ?

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #529 on: November 29, 2018, 04:36:17 am »
Why should the mushies care though ?

You've expressed the view that the moderates, "the silent majority", are counted, and that "the mushies have a lot of power".   But if the mushies just don't give a ****, that really doesn't matter.  If it was just an ivory tower debate between two opposing groups of extremists then maybe the mushies don't care. But they should, because this isn't staying in the ivory tower. This is entering the real world through laws and policies.

The mushies might not care right now, but they will. Sooner or later these changes will start impacting real people in greater numbers.

People who might not care right now will care a lot when their daughter goes off to college and is assigned to share a dorm room with some dude who decided to check the "female" box on his residency application. Or when their sister gets sued for not wanting to handle someone's "lady ****" at the salon.  Or when they go to the gym and Wax My Lady Balls Guy is wandering around the locker room looking for **** and ****.

If the mushies don't care yet, they'll find out they care later.  And the pendulum will swing back the other way.


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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #530 on: November 29, 2018, 06:07:10 am »
You've expressed the view that the moderates, "the silent majority", are counted, and that "the mushies have a lot of power".

Yes they are and they do.

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   But if the mushies just don't give a ****, that really doesn't matter.  If it was just an ivory tower debate between two opposing groups of extremists then maybe the mushies don't care. But they should, because this isn't staying in the ivory tower. This is entering the real world through laws and policies.

But on what scale ?  An individual pervert gaming the system isn't something the system isn't set up to prevent - at least not every time.

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The mushies might not care right now, but they will. Sooner or later these changes will start impacting real people in greater numbers.

I'm not sure that's true.  Why do you think that ?

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People who might not care right now will care a lot when their daughter goes off to college and is assigned to share a dorm room with some dude who decided to check the "female" box on his residency application. Or when their sister gets sued for not wanting to handle someone's "lady ****" at the salon.  Or when they go to the gym and Wax My Lady Balls Guy is wandering around the locker room looking for **** and ****.

But, why do you think a problem like that wouldn't be addressed if it grew to a common scale ?  Remember that same-sex marriage was simply not allowed, for no legal reason, effectively because less than 50% of Canadians didn't like the idea.  How does that get flipped around into your nightmare scenarios ?

Of course, I am assuming that people will say something at some point, and that there will be a pushback.

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If the mushies don't care yet, they'll find out they care later.  And the pendulum will swing back the other way.
 

Yes, exactly.  I wouldn't resent your alarm at this one case but I myself am not alarmed yet; just not sure that it's time to get upset.

« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 07:58:34 am by MH »

Offline TimG

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #531 on: November 29, 2018, 09:15:38 am »
http://thefederalist.com/2018/11/26/mom-dresses-six-year-old-son-girl-threatens-dad-losing-son-disagreeing/

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When James is away from his mother, he consistently rejects the idea that he is “Luna girl” or that he wants to be a girl. Because the court prohibits dad from dressing James as a boy or from teaching him that he is a boy by sharing religious or science-based teachings on sexuality, dad presents James with male and female clothing options and James always chooses, even insists on, his boy clothes. Dad told me, “James violently refuses to wear girl’s clothes at my home.” This is not a sign of gender dysphoria.
This kind of court ordered child abuse has to end. Diagnosing young kids with "gender dysphoria" is simply wrong.

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #532 on: November 29, 2018, 10:02:58 am »
http://thefederalist.com/2018/11/26/mom-dresses-six-year-old-son-girl-threatens-dad-losing-son-disagreeing/
This kind of court ordered child abuse has to end. Diagnosing young kids with "gender dysphoria" is simply wrong.
Based on the article, I agree that caution is called for.

I have concerns, however.  There is no information as to why the mother is insisting James is transgender but not his twin brother.  Mom may well be nuts, but if the boy can be said to be choosing "girl" to please mom, why could he not be choosing "boy" to please dad, friends of dad and other people he may believe would prefer him to be a boy?   

I am also concerned that real names are used and that the court documents the article links to gives the names of both boys, their ages and general location. 

I agree with the author that a wrongful diagnoses is extremely harmful and that chemical castration at 8 years old should not be a consideration.  But the one-sidedness of this story leaves me skeptical of the author's motivation and just how accurately he is presenting the facts. 

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #533 on: November 29, 2018, 10:19:11 am »
Yes they are and they do.

But on what scale ?  An individual pervert gaming the system isn't something the system isn't set up to prevent - at least not every time.

I think it is important to point out that in the estimation of the trans rights activists, everything "JY" is doing is completely legitimate.  He is completely within his rights to declare himself a woman when he wishes to.  He's completely within his rights to access women's locker rooms and demand services from aestheticians.   The trans rights activist position is that "JY" isn't "gaming the system" at all, he's demanding what's rightfully his.

I'm not sure that's true.  Why do you think that ?

How could this do anything but increase?  This is just the nascent stage of this "emerging consensus".  A few short years ago this would have all seemed nonsensical.  A few short years ago we were fighting for trans people to have the right to use public washrooms, not shower with women or get their lady-balls waxed.  This has moved forward so rapidly that it's hard to imagine where things will be in a short while.  Trans-everything is becoming increasingly accepted and normalized, and dare I say trendy?

Even with it being quite on the fringes, cases of predators abusing a claim of gender identification to gain access to victims were already known to have occurred.  As this becomes more and more common, how can it do anything but increase?

In particular I think this idea is very popular among misogynist incel types.  It gives them 2 things they crave: validation their sense of victimhood, and access to women's spaces.  I think that on this front, "JY" is just the thin edge of the wedge.

But, why do you think a problem like that wouldn't be addressed if it grew to a common scale ?  Remember that same-sex marriage was simply not allowed, for no legal reason, effectively because less than 50% of Canadians didn't like the idea.  How does that get flipped around into your nightmare scenarios ?

Of course, I am assuming that people will say something at some point, and that there will be a pushback.

Yes, exactly.  I wouldn't resent your alarm at this one case but I myself am not alarmed yet; just not sure that it's time to get upset.

I have to point out that these "nightmare scenarios" are real life for some people already.  I made up the college dorm one, but I'm sure it's on the way if it isn't already here. Trans people will definitely be demanding to be assigned to the living quarters of their choice.  Trans people are already sharing rooms with women in women's shelters so why not colleges. 

So how common does it have to be for it to become addressed?


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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #534 on: November 29, 2018, 11:15:10 am »
I have to point out that these "nightmare scenarios" are real life for some people already.  I made up the college dorm one, but I'm sure it's on the way if it isn't already here. Trans people will definitely be demanding to be assigned to the living quarters of their choice.  Trans people are already sharing rooms with women in women's shelters so why not colleges. 

So how common does it have to be for it to become addressed?

I posted an article not that long ago here with several such cases, including a mother in the UK who was lectured by the school when she complained that her 13 year old daughter was uncomfortable sharing a shower with a 'girl' who had a **** - which was often erect as 'she' stared at the other girls. Instead of paying any attention to her complaint they wanted her and her daughter to get counselling.

But then, you know how those menstruaters are...
Yes, that was the term the Guardian settled on for describing women who don't have penises, before, apparently, ridicule and abuse got them to change it. The more popular word going around there is womxn.

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/in-england-womxn-is-in-as-activists-try-to-replace-word-woman-in-the-name-of-inclusiveness
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Offline TimG

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #535 on: November 29, 2018, 11:39:32 am »
I have concerns, however.  There is no information as to why the mother is insisting James is transgender but not his twin brother.  Mom may well be nuts, but if the boy can be said to be choosing "girl" to please mom, why could he not be choosing "boy" to please dad, friends of dad and other people he may believe would prefer him to be a boy?
No matter what is true it does not justify the court getting involved to dictate that a child be treated in a certain way. Parents have arguments all the time about what children really want from joining the hockey team to piano lessons. No where does the court show this level of heavy handedness.


I agree with the author that a wrongful diagnoses is extremely harmful and that chemical castration at 8 years old should not be a consideration.
If one side is considering chemical castration of an 8 year old then that side is in the wrong no matter what other facts might exist. If the world had any justice a mother considering such a thing would be declared an unfit parent and the father given full custody.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #536 on: November 29, 2018, 11:55:18 am »
No matter what is true it does not justify the court getting involved to dictate that a child be treated in a certain way.
This is a pretty irrational position if you change the context. Courts do get involved in dictating how children should be treated. All the time in fact. There are legal and illegal ways for handling a child's upbringing. Parents are obligated by law to treat their children in particular ways. So your premise here is false. Granted it's your opinion, but even then it's a dangerous one because you're arguing "no matter what is true" the courts are "not justified in" enforcing parents' proper behaviour towards their children. This means that even if a parent is violently abusive or harmfully negligent or neglectful the courts are not justified in dictating to a parent that they are not to treat a child that way. This is a completely irrational stance.

So what I have to assume you mean is that a court shouldn't get involved when a child identifies as transgender. And of course that's your opinion because you hate transgender people and vehemently oppose anything to do with a person's right to their own identity. Time and again you argue that gender should be imposed on a person and they should be forced to identify in contradiction to their self-consciousness. You're completely incapable of recognizing that this would be like a court imposing upon you that you identify as a woman and equally as futile.
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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #537 on: November 29, 2018, 05:24:42 pm »
http://thefederalist.com/2018/11/26/mom-dresses-six-year-old-son-girl-threatens-dad-losing-son-disagreeing/
This kind of court ordered child abuse has to end. Diagnosing young kids with "gender dysphoria" is simply wrong.

The issue that the paper seems to make is that it's a misdiagnosis.  If you think being forced to wear a chiffon dress is wrong, you must also agree that being forced to wear overalls is also. 

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #538 on: November 29, 2018, 05:34:07 pm »
I think it is important to point out that in the estimation of the trans rights activists, everything "JY" is doing is completely legitimate.  He is completely within his rights to declare himself a woman when he wishes to.  He's completely within his rights to access women's locker rooms and demand services from aestheticians.   The trans rights activist position is that "JY" isn't "gaming the system" at all, he's demanding what's rightfully his.

Which activists now ?  Are all 'activists' bad ?  What are the homosexual activists up to these days ?  Do activists just quit after equality reaches near-total acceptance.

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How could this do anything but increase?  This is just the nascent stage of this "emerging consensus".  A few short years ago this would have all seemed nonsensical.  A few short years ago we were fighting for trans people to have the right to use public washrooms, not shower with women or get their lady-balls waxed.  This has moved forward so rapidly that it's hard to imagine where things will be in a short while.  Trans-everything is becoming increasingly accepted and normalized, and dare I say trendy?

People used to say that if we allowed gays to marry people would start marrying dogs next.  What is likely to happen ?  We don't know but I would guess that at a certain point, the public will wake up and see what's happening and either people will be ok with it or they will push back and something will change.

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Even with it being quite on the fringes, cases of predators abusing a claim of gender identification to gain access to victims were already known to have occurred.  As this becomes more and more common, how can it do anything but increase?

So you're saying that as assault becomes more common, there will be more of it.  I would think that as something becomes a problem the public becomes aware and there's a reaction.

 
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So how common does it have to be for it to become addressed?
 

Your nightmare scenario doesn't seem realistic to me.
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Offline TimG

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #539 on: November 29, 2018, 05:58:31 pm »
The issue that the paper seems to make is that it's a misdiagnosis.  If you think being forced to wear a chiffon dress is wrong, you must also agree that being forced to wear overalls is also.
My issue with transgender labeling of children is:

1) Psychologists who label a child going through a normal phase of growing up as "transgender" and then declare that this label is a immutable aspect of the child's identity are peddling quackery. Children evolve. Their futures are not predetermined. Especially when it comes to something like gender identity.

2) Suggesting to children (who are very suggestible) that there is something wrong with them that may require hormone injections and/or body mutilation is criminal child abuse.

The healthiest message for children is to learn to love the body they have. The state has no business interfering if this is the lesson they want to teach their children. Furthermore, parents have to teach children that doing things they don't like to do, such as wearing particular clothing, is a necessary fact of life. Again the the state has no business getting involved the clothing decisions that parents make for their children.

To re-iterate: the problem here is the state is going too far to micromanage how parents raise their children.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 06:51:18 pm by TimG »
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