Author Topic: Gender Culture  (Read 56068 times)

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Offline ?Impact

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #405 on: November 22, 2018, 04:32:38 pm »
The university is the one that cancelled the play.

The university - when you say it like that it seems like some monolithic entity controlled by an overlord. I guess if I want to apply to study at Eastern Michigan University then visit the Women's Resource Center there because obviously that is THE UNIVERSITY.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #406 on: November 22, 2018, 04:48:15 pm »
Society needs to accept that trans women are female in gender and are women but that they are a particular kind of woman, and that there's distinct biological differences between trans women and genetic women.  We need to stop pretending that trans women and biological women are exactly the same in name of inclusivity.  If trans women can't accept that, then they aren't being rational but delusional instead. There's a reason why we call a woman a woman & why we call a trans woman a trans woman: they aren't the same.

If on my dating profile i say i want to date a woman, you better not show up to the date with the jawline of Channing Tatum and get mad me when I end the date early by arguing "but I AM a real woman sir, you're transphobic!".  No, if you're a trans woman you better have that fact in your dating profile, because yes there's a difference.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #407 on: November 23, 2018, 04:11:27 am »
Does art exist to make people feel comfortable or included?

If art is expressing a view we don't share or sharing an experience that we haven't experienced ourselves, is that a bad thing?

Did they only make Mississippi Burning for people who lived in the Deep South during the Civil Rights era?  Did people who didn't live there at the time feel hurt and excluded?  Was Philadelphia only for people suffering from AIDS?


If we remove from art everything except that which makes people feel happy and comfortable and included, doesn't that just leave us with pablum?  "Hang in there kitty" posters and shopping-mall artists who paint relaxing lakeside landscapes and stuff like that?



I have never seen or read "The **** Monologues".  I understand it's a series of stories that talk about a wide variety of female experiences, from first menstruation to sex to giving birth to **** to sex work and others as well. Trans women might not have vaginas, but the overwhelming majority of women do, and sharing these thoughts and experiences was considered important and empowering for women.  But apparently being important and empowering for women is trumped by the hurt feelings of a tiny minority who feel excluded.

People talking about the cancellation of this production at Eastern Michigan University and other venues have paid lip-service to its historical importance. It was important in its time, but we're working with a changing concept of what it means to be a woman, blah blah etc.  But its time was just 20 years ago, and what it means to be a woman hasn't changed a whole lot since 1996.


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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #408 on: November 23, 2018, 04:25:50 am »
It seems like the new goal is to eradicate every shred of the female experience from the word "woman" and replace it with a new definition based on an affinity for traditional gender roles and clothing and some ill-defined "feeling". 
What do you mean by what i bolded?  Did you mean a rejection of traditional gender roles and clothing, rather than "affinity"?  Please clarify.


Trans people say they identify with being a woman. But they're obviously not talking about physiology. So what are they actually identifying with?  A socially-constructed concept of femininity...  external presentation, traditional gender roles, "pink jobs" rather than "blue jobs", this sort of thing.

While women have been less constrained to girly clothes and girly toys and girly jobs than they used to be, trans women have jumped in and declared that this stuff-- girly clothes, girly toys, girly jobs-- this stuff is the real meaning of womanhood. 

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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #409 on: November 23, 2018, 05:35:21 am »
Who says people can only be concerned about one problem at a time? People can be concerned about both.

Sure, but they should not devote equal time nor volume to non-problems.  We have mentally ill people being whipped up into violence against minority groups and politicians.  I think that's a clear and growing danger.

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Live and let live means if someone want to stage a play that is not "inclusive" then there is nothing wrong with it. If they don't want to stage a play for whatever reason then that is fine as well. The conflict happens when people want to impose their will on others. i.e. if the someone wanted to stage the play but was a afraid of being attacked by mobs of zealots then that is a big problem. It is not clear why the decision was made at EMU.

It seems that people are upset about this even though it's not clear that there were mobs ready to attack. 
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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #410 on: November 23, 2018, 05:38:22 am »
"not all women have vaginas" and the push to redefine womanhood into something "inclusive" is an ideology being pushed by trans activists and academics. If you want to quibble over whether that's 'concerted' or not, you can go it alone.

'Concerted' means 'organized' and has an insidious implication that there is a manipulation at hand.  You could, I suppose, argue that opposition and protests against Apartheid were concerted so it's not a bad word.  But then why use it ? 

 
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Are you proposing a parallel between the "persecuted Christians" meme and my reaction to this incident?

I'm asking what the difference is.  Are you upset that the definition of 'woman' is changing, or are you pushing against it because the extremists are trying to push crazy ideas there ?

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #411 on: November 23, 2018, 05:41:19 am »
Hey, there's millions of kids starving to death in Africa right now. How can we be talking about a few deaths at a synogogue when there's millions of kids starving to death in Africa?

More like: there's a PLAY BEING CANCELLED AT EMU !  WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT THIS.

It outrages you, and others it seems.  No wonder it's in the news.

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If you only get to talk about academic issues when there's no pressing real-world problems to solve, one might as well shut down the entire field of liberal arts, because there's always a pressing real-world problem that needs solving.  I'd think a guy who spent so much time studying Marshall McLuhan would appreciate this more than most.  Hey, Mike, how can you be reading that stuff when there's kids starving in Africa?

You're being played by FOX news, I fear.  They seek out these outrage morsels to get buttons pushed.

Unless I'm mistaken, they don't have a regular "East Michigan theatre beat" reporter over there.


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You could post this topic to your facebook feed. You've mentioned that your facebook circle includes those people who are trans and gender-flexible and whatever else people are self-identifying as these days. Post this and see how people react.

Post the EMU cancellation ?  No chance.  I'm sure I would be vilified for it.
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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #412 on: November 23, 2018, 05:42:38 am »
The university is the one that cancelled the play.  That’s not an individual, but an institution of (supposed) higher learning.

I don't think that's clear.  It could well be an individual, like an artistic director.

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #413 on: November 23, 2018, 05:50:33 am »
It's a concerted effort by certain feminists.  The thing is, often when you create one thing, you destroy another in order to do so .  This is basic physics. And sometimes, what you create has positives but what you destroy to create it has positives too, that are now lost.

I first heard "you must destroy in order to create" in an interview with Johnny Rotten on The Great Rock N Roll Swindle.  It made sense, but it referred to art not physics.  So I guess I agree with it, in terms of philosophy and specifically public philosophy and the moral sphere.  That's an art too.

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These people are trying to do something genuinely good and have the best of intentions, which is to be inclusive and make trans women feel included because they're often not included, and are so often alienated from society in general, which is terrible. 

I became more vocal/interested when I read a Toronto Police report that said 100% of trans women surveyed had been assaulted.  Then I realized my trans friends were likely all victims of assault and abuse.

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But at the same time, they are denying non-trans women a space & platform to talk about their unique issues, that being having a **** and all that this comes with.  I just don't think its practical or fair to deny a platform for an issue that effects 99% of women in order to make the less than 1% of women who don't have vaginas feel included.  If we should only talk about issues that affects all members of a particular group, we'd never talk about anything.

It probably isn't.  But why are we - two Canadian males, far from "East Michigan" - talking about it ?  We're not in the stakeholder group and have only been brought in because someone wanted to outrage people.

I'm pretty sure that the women of East Michigan didn't ask for me to come online and help support them.

So to be clear: I think the **** Monologues is great.  I have seen it performed.  I think women who are not trans have things to talk about and discuss, and can figure out how to engage with trans women in those spheres.  I doubt that there's any good reason for cancelling a whole play to spare the feelings of the trans women of East Michigan.  I think the real purpose of publicizing these things is to create a narrative of trans conspiracy of sorts.

 
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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #414 on: November 23, 2018, 05:58:45 am »
Society needs to accept that trans women are female in gender and are women but that they are a particular kind of woman, and that there's distinct biological differences between trans women and genetic women.  We need to stop pretending that trans women and biological women are exactly the same in name of inclusivity.  If trans women can't accept that, then they aren't being rational but delusional instead. There's a reason why we call a woman a woman & why we call a trans woman a trans woman: they aren't the same.

Sounds reasonable, and I'm pretty sure they will figure this out and I will have no input to that discussion or maybe no use for the outcome either.

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If on my dating profile i say i want to date a woman, you better not show up to the date with the jawline of Channing Tatum and get mad me when I end the date early by arguing "but I AM a real woman sir, you're transphobic!".  No, if you're a trans woman you better have that fact in your dating profile, because yes there's a difference.

There's an episode of Louis CK's "Horace and Pete" where he has all-night sex with a hottie and she jokes to him in the morning that he used to be a man.  It's a weird idea but an interesting one. 

Aaaand... I just checked.  I can still tell trans women from non-trans from photos.  There's just something extra in the feminine aspect. 

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #415 on: November 23, 2018, 06:00:40 am »
Does art exist to make people feel comfortable or included?

If art is expressing a view we don't share or sharing an experience that we haven't experienced ourselves, is that a bad thing?

Did they only make Mississippi Burning for people who lived in the Deep South during the Civil Rights era?  Did people who didn't live there at the time feel hurt and excluded?  Was Philadelphia only for people suffering from AIDS?

People feeling 'excluded' isn't a problem, of course not.  People telling others who they are, that might be a problem.

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #416 on: November 23, 2018, 06:02:37 am »

While women have been less constrained to girly clothes and girly toys and girly jobs than they used to be, trans women have jumped in and declared that this stuff-- girly clothes, girly toys, girly jobs-- this stuff is the real meaning of womanhood. 
 

Sure, but for themselves.  It's only possible after 3rd wave feminism, I think, wherein any depiction, dress, uniform, what have you is an expression of the wearer's freedom. 

Personally I can't wait until this stuff hits the bank.  I will be in my mid-60s and I'm pretty sure they'll be surprised at my reaction when I welcome it with open arms. 

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #417 on: November 23, 2018, 09:50:39 am »
More like: there's a PLAY BEING CANCELLED AT EMU !  WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT THIS.

It outrages you, and others it seems.  No wonder it's in the news.

Your reaction seems to indicate that you don't feel I should be outraged and that you don't think people need to talk about this.

If something is going on but people aren't supposed to talk about it, isn't that kind of troubling?


You're being played by FOX news, I fear.  They seek out these outrage morsels to get buttons pushed.

Unless I'm mistaken, they don't have a regular "East Michigan theatre beat" reporter over there.

Yes, there's some amusing irony that these conservative-leaning news outlets like Townhall have been the ones publicizing this incident.

Conservatives have always thought The **** Monologues was pornographic trash promoting immoral sexual ideas that ought to be banned.  Conservatives used to be the ones protesting **** Monologues, and even got it cancelled once upon a time.  But now that it gives them a venue to attack "the trans agenda", they love "Monologues" and they love gender-critical feminists like Megan Murphy.

It's kind of like how conservative Christians realized that they actually care very deeply about gay people, once it gave them an excuse to blast the Islams for homophobia.


Still, regardless of why it's in the news, this is a real incident, which really happened.  Similar things have happened elsewhere. Your view seems to be that the problem isn't that it's happening, but rather that people are talking about it.



Post the EMU cancellation ?  No chance.  I'm sure I would be vilified for it.

You're not allowed to question the hive mind?


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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #418 on: November 23, 2018, 10:15:09 am »
Sure, but for themselves. 

No, not just for themselves.   This EMU episode illustrates the point.  Their quest to remove any biological factors from the definition of "women" means cancelling "The **** Monologues".

Things like menstruation, contraception, reproductive care, these are no longer "women's issues", these are now "bleeder issues".  Menstruation isn't a women's experience anymore, it's for "bleeders" and "roasties".



It's only possible after 3rd wave feminism, I think, wherein any depiction, dress, uniform, what have you is an expression of the wearer's freedom. 

Personally I can't wait until this stuff hits the bank.  I will be in my mid-60s and I'm pretty sure they'll be surprised at my reaction when I welcome it with open arms.

"Middle Age Man Welcomes New Definition Of Womanhood".   That's real magnanimous of you, Michael.

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #419 on: November 23, 2018, 12:06:58 pm »
Are you upset that the definition of 'woman' is changing, or are you pushing against it because the extremists are trying to push crazy ideas there ?

The idea the definition of a woman is changing is a crazy idea pushed by extremists.
No one with a **** is a woman. End of story.

I know the progressives will get all bug eyed with outrage over that but almost everyone else would agree.
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