Author Topic: Gender Culture  (Read 56040 times)

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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #375 on: November 07, 2018, 07:06:36 am »
I don't think the activists demanding that people they consider "TERFs" be silenced are extremists within the movement... they seem to be the mainstream of the movement.  Judging from the success they've had, they're being treated as if they're the mainstream, at least.

Your friends might not be the brains of the movement, but they're helping provide the muscle. Their social media voices, along with large numbers of others like them, is what gives these activists the clout to demand that professors be fired or that speakers be deplatformed or that Body Blitz change their policy.


 -k

But I'm saying that the definition of TERF is different for fringe dwellers vs the mainstream.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #376 on: November 07, 2018, 08:20:10 am »

The fantasy: they're defending themselves against genocidal fascists.

The reality: male-bodied thugs beating up little old ladies.


 -k
Look, if you're just going to conflate an art exhibit with an actual criminal offence, then you've missed the point entirely. Also, the fact that you point out THIS assault, but not the literal murders of transgender people with the same staunch criticism is an illustration of the hypocrisy that the art exhibit is meant to elicit.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 08:21:55 am by cybercoma »

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #377 on: November 07, 2018, 09:44:19 am »
But I'm saying that the definition of TERF is different for fringe dwellers vs the mainstream.

If the fringe-dweller says "hey, this person's a TERF! Get 'em!" and your well-meaning friends grab their social media torches and social media pitchforks... does it matter what the moderates think?   If the mob follows the fringe-dweller, then the fringe-dweller is the mainstream, and the moderates are not.

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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #378 on: November 07, 2018, 09:53:09 am »
Look, if you're just going to conflate an art exhibit with an actual criminal offence, then you've missed the point entirely. Also, the fact that you point out THIS assault, but not the literal murders of transgender people with the same staunch criticism is an illustration of the hypocrisy that the art exhibit is meant to elicit.

I'm well aware that there is real-world violence directed against trans people.   I'm not sure how anybody could think that fomenting hate and violence towards "TERFs" will help solve that problem.  Blood-stained shirts with violent slogans are not going to make women feel safer with the idea of letting trans women into women's shelters.

I mentioned the real-world assault by the trans activist on the alleged TERF to point out that this hatred isn't a hypothetical or imaginary thing, it exists in the real world as well. I posted a link earlier that has a vast number of examples of social media screenshots illustrating the point. I saw more examples just checking out some trans-related areas of reddit last week. 

These people have demonized women who are concerned about the impact of trans rights on women's safety. They've campaigned to silence them.  They've driven them out of LGBT spaces.  They've promoted hate and violence against these women.

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #379 on: November 07, 2018, 11:36:20 am »
I want to know what happens to the penises and **** lips after the surgeon cuts them off?  And where do the balls go?

Trans people don't bother to go in for that stuff. Besides, they might be men again tomorrow - or women, depending on how they feel.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #380 on: November 07, 2018, 11:39:33 am »
Look, if you're just going to conflate an art exhibit with an actual criminal offence, then you've missed the point entirely. Also, the fact that you point out THIS assault, but not the literal murders of transgender people with the same staunch criticism is an illustration of the hypocrisy that the art exhibit is meant to elicit.

Trans people are being murdered by feminists? GTFO.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #381 on: November 07, 2018, 11:42:46 am »
Trans people are being murdered by feminists? Get the **** out of here.
I know. A tranny is a tranny to you, but if anyone dared to lump you in with the worst elements of conservatism, you would claim those people aren't "real" conservatives, etc. So maybe stop conflating separate situations and painting entire groups of people by the worst examples you have.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #382 on: November 07, 2018, 11:59:46 am »
I know. A tranny is a tranny to you, but if anyone dared to lump you in with the worst elements of conservatism, you would claim those people aren't "real" conservatives, etc. So maybe stop conflating separate situations and painting entire groups of people by the worst examples you have.

Of course, the clear and obvious difference is anyone on the far right who says or does anything extreme is instantly booted from the ranks of conservatives. I don't see that happening here. I don't see any attempt at dissociating this from 'mainstream' trans activism. If these people are running the show then, as Kimmy says, they're the mainstream.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #383 on: November 07, 2018, 12:08:16 pm »
1. does it matter what the moderates think?   
2. If the mob follows the fringe-dweller, then the fringe-dweller is the mainstream, and the moderates are not.
 
1. of course, it always matters politically
2. maybe we should start by defining the centre then.  I don't know where some mob figures into it.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #384 on: November 08, 2018, 02:49:49 am »
1. of course, it always matters politically

How does it matter?  If the moderates don't make their views heard, then what good are they?  If you're running a spa and you have dozens or hundreds of angry messages from trans supporters telling you your policy is bad, and almost nobody writes to tell you they like the current policy, then you probably conclude that the overwhelming majority thinks your policy needs to be changed. The spa owner will hear from the angry activists immediately, but probably won't find out what mild middle thinks for months, when people start voting with their wallets on whether they like the new policy or not.

I am as guilty as anybody, of course, because I've almost never written to a business or a media outlet to make my views known. 

2. maybe we should start by defining the centre then.  I don't know where some mob figures into it.

If the mob are the ones who get to decide which books get taken off the shelf at the LGBT book store, or get to decide who gets removed from the Dyke March, or which professors get censured or fired by the university, that's where the mob figures into it.  If the mob makes the rules, then the people trying to find a compromise are irrelevant.


I don't know where the center is. I used to think I was the center.  But it seems like I'm well to the exclusionary side of center, judging from where real-world policy decisions are landing.  If that's the case then all people like me have left is to vote with our feet and our wallets.


 -k
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #385 on: November 08, 2018, 08:43:49 am »
How does it matter?  If the moderates don't make their views heard, then what good are they?  If you're running a spa and you have dozens or hundreds of angry messages from trans supporters telling you your policy is bad, and almost nobody writes to tell you they like the current policy, then you probably conclude that the overwhelming majority thinks your policy needs to be changed. The spa owner will hear from the angry activists immediately, but probably won't find out what mild middle thinks for months, when people start voting with their wallets on whether they like the new policy or not.

I'm assuming that the moderates are counted... the 'silent majority' and so on.

Quote
I am as guilty as anybody, of course, because I've almost never written to a business or a media outlet to make my views known. 

But because you're in the mainstream you have a majority of opinion with you so that must be reflected somehow.

Quote
I don't know where the center is. I used to think I was the center.  But it seems like I'm well to the exclusionary side of center, judging from where real-world policy decisions are landing.  If that's the case then all people like me have left is to vote with our feet and our wallets.
 

That 'not knowing' is uneasy and is unfortunately the new 'centre' in a world with changing media.  This is why our world is so scary right now: we don't know.

How many incels are there ?  How many alt-right ?  Why is Trump winning ?

Our mirror to look at ourselves at a society is media and when that changes all bets are off.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #386 on: November 13, 2018, 09:21:09 am »
https://www.ctvnews.ca/sports/transgender-cycling-champion-faces-backlash-after-winning-gold-1.4173127

Rachel McKinnon - Canadian transgender athlete - cycling champion faces backlash after winning gold.

The public will soon wake up and start to digest this.  Interesting point I got from these articles is that they assert there's no proof that testosterone is correlated with better competition results.  Also the assertion that male dominance in sport is sociological.  Hmmmm.

I'm not at the table here, though.  Do trans women have an advantage in women's sports and should something be done ?  Not a question for me, other than as the wider 'public...

Offline Rue

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #387 on: November 13, 2018, 10:24:58 am »
I don't know anymore what gender culture is in the Western world. Obviously in other world's it can be rigid concepts of what are the roles of male and female.

I do know in all life forms is homosexuality and its clearly a built in population control feature and if it was "abnormal" it would not be in all pro-creating life forms as it has been found to be.

We also  know now definitively that unlike what was thought in the past they have now proven genetic predisposition to being homosexual.

I really am not that interested in who people phack as long as its not done without consent, with violence or with children or animals. I am not sure if that is gender though or sexual practice.

In regards to Gender, there is an agenda to define sexuality as fluid today. I don't know what that means. People want to leave gender as this wide open, unlimited definition. I am not sure if that is self-indulgence, maladjustment, adjustment,  narcissism, confusion, or creativity. For me it comes down to the individual and what they decide with their doctor in private. I don't judge what someone wants to do with their pee pee but I when it comes down to it do resent sometimes people promoting it excessively. I feel your feelings about yourself expressed publically including your feelings about your pee pee or vee vee should be done in a modest manner in public if for no other reason you end up being Kim Kardashian if you go too far with thi and she is annoying and I know her real name is Clyde.

Its it unfair to suggest there are far too many people today who want to have it all and be a little bit pregnant? The fact is you can't be a little bit pregnant when it cones to your pee pee vee vee.

I think some not all of the gender dialogue has become too self indulgent and narcissistic.

There is too much focus on people making demands and demanding entitlements and not enough quiet calm self acceptance..

Nature is what it is. This need to control it by humans is ancient. Humans always want to control nature. In medicine, it is supposed to be benevolent when we do that to keep us alive longer. O.k. so it works of course, but then we live longer with diseases to the point where we are placed in a position of living with diseases that consume and overwhelm us and trap us in non stop pain. When is enough, enough with all this discontent and confusion as to what nature has defined?

I would conclude by saying I would hope some people just don't change their bodies because they can't accept being gay. I am told people who g o for the operation are tested for that and screened, etc., so that their decision is based on positive not negative reasons but sometimes I think its sad some people change themselves gender wise and like anyone who changes their bodies, their inner selves do not change.

Sometimes the emphasis on our piping and sex facilities misses the point that who we are is not just about the testes.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 10:39:19 am by Rue »
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #388 on: November 13, 2018, 12:47:46 pm »
https://www.acsh.org/news/2018/10/16/should-men-who-identify-women-compete-womens-sports-13518

More on this from a science organization of some kind.  The article is not written in objective voice, though.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #389 on: November 13, 2018, 03:08:54 pm »
Do trans women have an advantage in women's sports and should something be done ?  Not a question for me, other than as the wider 'public...

Your question is "Do men have an advantage over women in sports." The answer is, obviously yes.

I don't care what they feel they are. Physically, they are men, and have the same physical advantage over women that any other man would have.
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