Author Topic: Gender Culture  (Read 56004 times)

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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #345 on: November 05, 2018, 05:09:07 am »
What lost it for me are the trans-activists who want to teach kids that the normal "who-am-i" issues many kids experience can/should be solved with hormones and hacking off body parts. On top of this these activists push for legislation/regulation to prevent parents from teaching their kids that they should love the body they have. Child abuse is the only reasonable way to describe what trans-activists are demanding for in schools now.

Again, not indicative of anything.


Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #346 on: November 05, 2018, 10:45:27 am »
You're not a TERF, but you have issues with some questions of trans rights.  The 'cotton ceiling' thing we discussed, and nobody expects you to date people you're not attracted to.  I don't know why you include that in the mix at all.

If I'm reading what these freaks are saying, her refusal to have sex with a 'woman' who has a male body does indeed make her a TERF and a bigot.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #347 on: November 05, 2018, 12:57:57 pm »
If I'm reading what these freaks are saying, her refusal to have sex with a 'woman' who has a male body does indeed make her a TERF and a bigot.

No, she isn't a TERF as she accepts transgender people.

Taking a wide spectrum of opinions and finding a dividing line serves some reasons but also divides people when you use a term like 'TERF'.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #348 on: November 05, 2018, 02:33:13 pm »
No, she isn't a TERF as she accepts transgender people.

Taking a wide spectrum of opinions and finding a dividing line serves some reasons but also divides people when you use a term like 'TERF'.

She is 'exclusionary' so yes she is. You can't approach these things with a common sense outlook. Either she completely and fully accepts 'trans' women as full and absolutely equal women in every way, shape and form, or she's the enemy.

There is no room in the dialogue of social activists for a middle path. Like those lefty loonies outside the debate between Frum and Bannon calling everyone Nazis. To them, either you're on the Left or you're a Nazi. There's no in between.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #349 on: November 05, 2018, 02:55:19 pm »
She is 'exclusionary' so yes she is.

I disagree.  Let's ask her, though, if she wants to apply this very binary term to her.  It implies that you don't accept trans women as anything but men pretending to be women.

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You can't approach these things with a common sense outlook. Either she completely and fully accepts 'trans' women as full and absolutely equal women in every way, shape and form, or she's the enemy.

That's horseshit.  Following that logic means you are alt-right.  These labels are being used to demonize people.

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There is no room in the dialogue of social activists for a middle path. Like those lefty loonies outside the debate between Frum and Bannon calling everyone Nazis. To them, either you're on the Left or you're a Nazi. There's no in between.

Well... you're doing that too.  If you want to call her a TERF because she doesn't want trans women to compete against biological women, then you're making the same mistake.

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #350 on: November 05, 2018, 07:31:47 pm »
I disagree.  Let's ask her, though, if she wants to apply this very binary term to her.  It implies that you don't accept trans women as anything but men pretending to be women.

That's horseshit.  Following that logic means you are alt-right.  These labels are being used to demonize people.

Well... you're doing that too.  If you want to call her a TERF because she doesn't want trans women to compete against biological women, then you're making the same mistake.

Maybe I haven't read enough on the subject, but I think you're wrong.  If someone uses the word TERF to demonize someone, how does that make someone who sees that and acknowledges it,  alt-right?  It doesn't have to be all Trans people or supporters.

Is this one of those instances where the left refuses to see poor behaviour by those it has previously championed just because it doesn't want to? 

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #351 on: November 05, 2018, 11:18:10 pm »
The intent of the exhibit is the question I have, and I can't buy the source article's take on this as they appear to be biased.

It's a blood-stained shirt that says "I punch TERFS".  Is it really that ambiguous?



If a public library had hung up a shirt that read "I punch Muslims", would you need to check with the "artist" before you decided how upset you needed to be?

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As someone of Muslim descent, I see both something very different and very familiar in how the marginalized groups of Muslims and women are treated. If SFPL had exhibited a t-shirt that said “I punch Muslims”, I know that Bay Area community organizations and activists would have raised hell and had it shut down. But women? That nagging underclass of humanity? Nobody cares about us, be it on the left or the right.

There is also a chilling similarity. Violence is often justified by presenting the aggressor as the victim. When I see the lies and histrionics about radical feminists who “want all trans people to die” it reminds me of claims like “Muslims want to destroy the West/kill all Christians”. I have never seen any radical feminist advocate for violence against or wish death upon transpeople. Radical feminists simply do not believe that gender is natural or innate, and therefore do not agree with the current dogma that a woman is “anybody who identifies as a woman”. And in the ultra-privileged bubble and navel-gazing culture of American identitarians, disagreeing with someone’s beliefs about themselves is construed as the ultimate violence.

The Degenderettes exhibit is nothing more than misogyny and male entitlement and violence repackaged with the help of some eyeliner. As to the “liberals” who condone this, they have so wrapped their self-worth and social capital around being “woke” and supporting progressive causes, and they are so skittish about being reprimanded for wrongthink, that they allow themselves no room for critical thought.

https://crackinthesystem.org/2018/05/11/degenderettes-exhibit-at-sfpl/


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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #352 on: November 05, 2018, 11:48:24 pm »
I disagree.  Let's ask her, though, if she wants to apply this very binary term to her.  It implies that you don't accept trans women as anything but men pretending to be women.

That's horseshit.  Following that logic means you are alt-right.  These labels are being used to demonize people.

Well... you're doing that too.  If you want to call her a TERF because she doesn't want trans women to compete against biological women, then you're making the same mistake.


SJ's point is not that I am or am not a TERF.  It's that expressing my discomfort with some of these ideas makes me a TERF in the eyes of these activists.

Early in the thread you wrote this, regarding your Facebook friends' reaction to a column by Megan Murphy.
I doubt that.  The trans-protection legislation is through the Senate, I think, so soon to be law.  This will have to be tested in court.

I learned a new term yesterday - TERF.  It means trans-exclusionary-radical-feminist and is a large schism in the feminist community, apparently between generations of feminists.  The CBC ran an opinion piece from a Megan Murphy that is being absolutely roasted on my facebook discussion page as she is dismissing the law outright.  It's a rare case of the CBC going to the right of the Liberal party.

I liked the column, I thought it made a lot of sense. I gather your friends didn't.   I read about people talking about boycotting Murphy's website and so-on.

Women are being threatened and deplatformed and losing their jobs for expressing concern over things like male-bodied prisoners being put in the women's prison. It's not people interested in having a discussion who are calling for their heads (figuratively or literally.)  The Quillette article SJ posted yesterday talks about this.

If your Facebook friends think Megan Murphy is The Enemy, they'd probably think I'm the enemy too.  And I can live with that. But don't put the blame on me.  I'm not the one who decided that there's no middle ground here. That would be your Facebook friend and these trans rights activists who've decided that nothing less than total agreement is acceptable.


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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #353 on: November 06, 2018, 12:58:13 am »
Maybe I haven't read enough on the subject, but I think you're wrong.  If someone uses the word TERF to demonize someone, how does that make someone who sees that and acknowledges it,  alt-right?  It doesn't have to be all Trans people or supporters.

I didn't do a good job of explaining myself.  I'm saying if you follow the principle of labelling people TERFs based on "if you don't agree with the most extreme trans radical you are not accepting of them and you are a TERF" ... means that your group definition is off.  That means one person can call you alt-right and therefore you are alt-right.

I didn't mean to associate opinions on trans people to the alt-right.

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Is this one of those instances where the left refuses to see poor behaviour by those it has previously championed just because it doesn't want to?

Who ?

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #354 on: November 06, 2018, 06:39:56 am »
I didn't do a good job of explaining myself.  I'm saying if you follow the principle of labelling people TERFs based on "if you don't agree with the most extreme trans radical you are not accepting of them and you are a TERF" ... means that your group definition is off.  That means one person can call you alt-right and therefore you are alt-right.

I didn't mean to associate opinions on trans people to the alt-right.

Who ?

Well not you, obviously, if I completely misread your point.  Sorry about that.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #355 on: November 06, 2018, 06:43:01 am »
She is 'exclusionary'
YOU criticizing people for being exclusionary? LMFAO  :D

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #356 on: November 06, 2018, 06:45:23 am »
It's a blood-stained shirt that says "I punch TERFS".  Is it really that ambiguous?

 -k
The importance of this art is to show the visceral reaction people have to this in comparison to their reaction when trans people are beaten and killed in the streets. Apparently an art exhibit is more newsworthy and gets more contempt than the actual people who've been beaten and murdered for the crime of being transgender.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #357 on: November 06, 2018, 08:51:59 am »
Well not you, obviously, if I completely misread your point.  Sorry about that.

Not at all.  I was unclear.  I'm thinking about 'labels' again and how difficult they are to apply.

Especially every time I see a Facebook troll post about 'the left' referring to the Democrats...

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #358 on: November 06, 2018, 08:52:47 am »
YOU criticizing people for being exclusionary? LMFAO  :D

He's not.  He's just saying what he thinks she is.  Certainly she is partially exclusionary but a TERF ?

This is not a pipe - this is a conversation about labels.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #359 on: November 06, 2018, 08:53:37 am »
The importance of this art is to show the visceral reaction people have to this in comparison to their reaction when trans people are beaten and killed in the streets. Apparently an art exhibit is more newsworthy and gets more contempt than the actual people who've been beaten and murdered for the crime of being transgender.

Makes sense.  The article didn't mention that, I don't think.  But it was clearly pre-loaded anyway which is why I didn't look at it too closely.