Author Topic: Gender Culture  (Read 56044 times)

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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #330 on: October 17, 2018, 07:15:02 pm »
You guys have seen Jessie Graf absolutely crush guys' times in American Ninja Warrior, right? You're trying to boil this down to biological sex, when I'm saying that it's more complicated than that because it's about the benefits that biological sex offers. Size, strength, endurance, can all show more variability within the sexes than between. We're not talking about the factors that affect the disparities in ability, but instead you're focusing solely on the sex someone is assigned at birth.

But by all means, continue freaking out about dudes playing sports with women because it's "unnatural," as if women are fragile little dolls who can't possibly have strength, size, and endurance that exceeds that of many men.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #331 on: October 17, 2018, 08:24:39 pm »
You guys have seen Jessie Graf absolutely crush guys' times in American Ninja Warrior, right? You're trying to boil this down to biological sex, when I'm saying that it's more complicated than that because it's about the benefits that biological sex offers. Size, strength, endurance, can all show more variability within the sexes than between. We're not talking about the factors that affect the disparities in ability, but instead you're focusing solely on the sex someone is assigned at birth.

But by all means, continue freaking out about dudes playing sports with women because it's "unnatural," as if women are fragile little dolls who can't possibly have strength, size, and endurance that exceeds that of many men.

This is the “exception fallacy”.   Using an individual case to ascribe attributes to the whole.  You know full well that, in general, biological males have increased muscle mass, lung capacity, etc, etc that makes them excel more in sports. 

Also, no one said anything about it being “unnatural”. Straw man.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #332 on: October 17, 2018, 08:30:58 pm »
You're trying to boil this down to biological sex, when I'm saying that it's more complicated than that because it's about the benefits that biological sex offers...We're not talking about the factors that affect the disparities in ability, but instead you're focusing solely on the sex someone is assigned at birth.

How do you measure how much growth hormones somebody was exposed to at birth, during puberty, their current hormone level, then look at genetic makeup ie: fast-twitch/slow-twitch fibers, tendons, ligaments etc?  Then how do you weigh all these factors? And by what categories do you slot people into?

Even if it could be done, from a practical standpoint it seems not very doable to completely reconfigure the sports world to accommodate a very tiny % of the population.  Gold medal in moderate pre-natal testosterone, below-median pubescent testosterone 4 x 100 relay?
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #333 on: October 17, 2018, 08:36:19 pm »
Boobies.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #334 on: October 17, 2018, 09:37:16 pm »
But they don't compete on an equal basis. The assumption is that biological women lack the hormones to produce the kind of power and endurance that biological men can produce with their hormone levels. The fact of the matter is, women are not tested for their hormone levels to see if they're truly competing on a "level" playing field. A genetically female athlete could naturally produce more hormones that make her naturally more competitive than other females. With a transgender female athlete, they are often on hormone regimens that severely limit their genetically male hormones to such a degree that it is far lower than some cisgender female athletes who produce greater levels of the hormones that transgender athletes are having inhibited.

Trying to reduce the argument to strictly a question of testosterone levels (as McKinnon herself does) is simply ridiculous because it ignores the effect of male hormones and growth hormones during the developmental years.  The average male grows to a size that only a small percentage of women reach.

Even women like Serena Willians and Maria Sharapova, who are absolute units compared to the typical woman, are barely average size by male standards. Willians is like 5'10 and 180, so she's somewhere around average size for a man. At 6'2 Sharapova is taller than the average man, but she's also only about 150-160 pounds.

And that's just size... then there's bone structure-- bigger, thicker, denser bones, broad chest, broad shoulders... the picture I posted earlier of McKinnon and her competitors illustrates the point. 

Body composition-- men have lower body fat percentage. A body fat percentage that's considered very fit for a woman is still average or unhealthy for a man. Even at the same weight women carry far less muscle.    This is one point I am willing to concede McKinnon: having her testosterone level cut back to typical female levels might prevent her from maintaining the same amount of lean skeletal muscle that a male athlete carries, but I also doubt her body fat percentage is any higher than a woman who has had typical female hormone levels since the onset of puberty.

Even an average male who transitions to female as an adult has already got a genetic advantage that's available to only a tiny percentage of women.  And an above average male would have a physical advantage that would exceed almost all women.



What do you think of a 5'4" guy competing in men's hockey? Fair?

So this is a good point.

Life isn't fair. If you're a 5'4 guy, you can play hockey. You might even be good at it. You might have a great time in your rec league.  And if you're really extraordinary, you might even make the pros.  (Wasn't Theoren Fleury 5'4 of something like that?)    But most likely, your size is going to be too much of a hurdle to overcome in reaching the highest reaches of the sport.  Life isn't fair.

I had notions of being a competitive runner-- maybe getting a college scholarship, traveling the world, all that stuff.  I was exceptional, especially at distance running.  But as I got closer to adulthood I began to lose ground against the top girls who were just built better for running. I was heavier and shorter than them.  As hard as I trained, I couldn't make my legs 2" longer. Genetics began to come into play. Having asthma didn't help either.  As much as I wanted it, and as hard as I worked at it, it just wasn't going to happen for me. Life's not fair.

And I think maybe Rachel McKinnon and people like her should also accept that life's not fair.   If it's a question of excluding some number of trans women or turning the whole of womens' athletics into a joke, I think you have to choose the greater good.


You guys have seen Jessie Graf absolutely crush guys' times in American Ninja Warrior, right? You're trying to boil this down to biological sex, when I'm saying that it's more complicated than that because it's about the benefits that biological sex offers. Size, strength, endurance, can all show more variability within the sexes than between. We're not talking about the factors that affect the disparities in ability, but instead you're focusing solely on the sex someone is assigned at birth.

But by all means, continue freaking out about dudes playing sports with women because it's "unnatural," as if women are fragile little dolls who can't possibly have strength, size, and endurance that exceeds that of many men.

Exceeds that of many men... but not many men who are athletes.

I don't follow the "Ninja Warrior" stuff, but I gather the remarkable thing about Jessie Graff is not that her times are top times (they aren't) but simply that she's been able to finish courses that no other women have completed. Her athletic ability is remarkable by comparison to other women, but not in comparison with the male competitors in her sport.

(Also, I saw a clip of her doing a standing backflip while wearing an evening gown and high heels at a red carpet event. That's pretty remarkable too. Also, she's somewhat attractive.)



(she seems nice.)



 -k
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #335 on: October 19, 2018, 07:29:03 am »
This is the “exception fallacy”.   Using an individual case to ascribe attributes to the whole.  You know full well that, in general, biological males have increased muscle mass, lung capacity, etc, etc that makes them excel more in sports. 

Also, no one said anything about it being “unnatural”. Straw man.
And you're committing the fallacy of focusing on the example that I gave without addressing the substance of my point. The general person isn't an athlete. A transgender woman is also not the prototypical male athlete either. They don't have the same genetic advantages after undergoing hormone therapy, but you completely refuse to acknowledge that point so I see no point in addressing you any further until you do.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #336 on: October 19, 2018, 07:11:35 pm »
Quote
They don't have the same genetic advantages after undergoing hormone therapy,

Cite please.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #337 on: November 04, 2018, 03:15:25 pm »
An interesting story of a radical feminist and gay rights activist relentlessly hounded by transexuals for daring to suggest that women don't have a ****.

Feminists now are routinely beaten up, slandered, fired from their jobs and de-platformed if they offer even the mildest caveat in regard to the demands of transgender extremists. Just this week, in fact, a female lecturer at Liverpool John Moores University was mobbed, with potentially career-ending ramifications, after raising concerns about male-bodied individuals being sent to female prisons.

https://quillette.com/2018/10/31/silencing-women-in-the-name-of-trans-activism/
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 03:17:25 pm by SirJohn »
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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #338 on: November 04, 2018, 03:16:37 pm »
An interesting story of a radical feminist and gay rights activist relentlessly hounded by transexuals for daring to suggest that women don't have a ****.

Feminists now are routinely beaten up, slandered, fired from their jobs and de-platformed if they offer even the mildest caveat in regard to the demands of transgender extremists. Just this week, in fact, a female lecturer at Liverpool John Moores University was mobbed, with potentially career-ending ramifications, after raising concerns about male-bodied individuals being sent to female prisons.

https://quillette.com/2018/10/31/silencing-women-in-the-name-of-trans-activism/

TERFs.  The new Nazis.  Go figure.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #339 on: November 04, 2018, 07:13:34 pm »
TERFs.  The new Nazis.  Go figure.

These fights get really viscious.  I have a few old feminists in my FB feed, and they get very viscous when describing trans people.  Then the younger feminists give it back to them.

Like all of these political fights, there is little entertainment value in someone staking out a reasonable middle ground and trying to build some kind of understanding.  For example, even the pro-trans feminists can relate to feeling strange about seeing a **** in a change room so just say that.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #340 on: November 05, 2018, 01:23:45 am »
An interesting story of a radical feminist and gay rights activist relentlessly hounded by transexuals for daring to suggest that women don't have a ****.

Feminists now are routinely beaten up, slandered, fired from their jobs and de-platformed if they offer even the mildest caveat in regard to the demands of transgender extremists. Just this week, in fact, a female lecturer at Liverpool John Moores University was mobbed, with potentially career-ending ramifications, after raising concerns about male-bodied individuals being sent to female prisons.


The hatred and is incredibly intense, and the violent ideation being expressed is frightening.  The following page has a huge compilation of social media screenshots from trans activists who want to fight, shoot, burn, or sodomize "TERFs". (is it just me, or is there something kind of ... male ... about this ideation? have a look and see if you agree.)

https://terfisaslur.com/

Some images from a San Francisco "art exhibit" created by this group.  Bloodied shirts with anti-TERF slogans. Baseball bats wrapped in barbed wire, axes, and sledge-hammers for smashing TERFs.








https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2018/04/27/san-francisco-public-library-hosts-transgender-art-exhibit-featuring-weapons-intended-to-kill-feminists/


This is **** insanity.  That it's accepted and even encouraged is deeply disturbing.


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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #341 on: November 05, 2018, 01:47:03 am »
These fights get really viscious.  I have a few old feminists in my FB feed, and they get very viscous when describing trans people.  Then the younger feminists give it back to them.

Like all of these political fights, there is little entertainment value in someone staking out a reasonable middle ground and trying to build some kind of understanding.  For example, even the pro-trans feminists can relate to feeling strange about seeing a **** in a change room so just say that.

I used to think I was ok with trans rights. Back when it was about pronouns and non-discrimination and simply being able to use the washroom, I was all on board. I am still on board with those things.

But lately, they have completely lost me.  The Body Blitz thing was probably the start of it.  I know that I would not have been comfortable in that situation. The idea that this made me a "TERF" was pretty upsetting for me. I wasn't sure that wanting personal privacy is "trans exclusionary" and I'm sure it wasn't "radical".  But with that I could at least accept that maybe I'm just a prude and others won't see it that way.

But lately... the sheer idiocy of this male-bodied person competing in women's sports.

The "cotton ceiling" idea. This idea that they haven't achieved real equality until lesbians will accept trans-women's "lady-penises". I **** hate it.  And I'm sure that nobody who grew up as a female would have picked the "cotton ceiling" metaphor, because the image of some man-hand tearing your underwear is deeply unsettling for people who grew up female.

I read some trans woman writing that she finds feminism's focus on reproductive rights to be alienating, because not all women have a uterus.  I read another trans woman explaining that all trans women understand what it's like to be women, but not all women understand what it's like to be trans women, and therefore trans women are the only women who fully understand the needs of all women, and therefore are uniquely positioned to lead feminism going forward.   

I'm **** done with it. I'm completely over it.  I feel like I'm a pretty fair minded and balanced person, but I can't deal with this idiocy anymore.  And I feel like if you've lost me, you've probably lost most people.


 -k
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #342 on: November 05, 2018, 04:33:02 am »

This is **** insanity.  That it's accepted and even encouraged is deeply disturbing.
 

The intent of the exhibit is the question I have, and I can't buy the source article's take on this as they appear to be biased.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #343 on: November 05, 2018, 04:34:48 am »
I used to think I was ok with trans rights. Back when it was about pronouns and non-discrimination and simply being able to use the washroom, I was all on board. I am still on board with those things.

But lately, they have completely lost me.  The Body Blitz thing was probably the start of it.  I know that I would not have been comfortable in that situation. The idea that this made me a "TERF" was pretty upsetting for me. I wasn't sure that wanting personal privacy is "trans exclusionary" and I'm sure it wasn't "radical".  But with that I could at least accept that maybe I'm just a prude and others won't see it that way.

But lately... the sheer idiocy of this male-bodied person competing in women's sports.

The "cotton ceiling" idea. This idea that they haven't achieved real equality until lesbians will accept trans-women's "lady-penises". I **** hate it.  And I'm sure that nobody who grew up as a female would have picked the "cotton ceiling" metaphor, because the image of some man-hand tearing your underwear is deeply unsettling for people who grew up female.

I read some trans woman writing that she finds feminism's focus on reproductive rights to be alienating, because not all women have a uterus.  I read another trans woman explaining that all trans women understand what it's like to be women, but not all women understand what it's like to be trans women, and therefore trans women are the only women who fully understand the needs of all women, and therefore are uniquely positioned to lead feminism going forward.   

I'm **** done with it. I'm completely over it.  I feel like I'm a pretty fair minded and balanced person, but I can't deal with this idiocy anymore.  And I feel like if you've lost me, you've probably lost most people.


 -k

You're not a TERF, but you have issues with some questions of trans rights.  The 'cotton ceiling' thing we discussed, and nobody expects you to date people you're not attracted to.  I don't know why you include that in the mix at all.

Offline TimG

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #344 on: November 05, 2018, 04:39:28 am »
I used to think I was ok with trans rights. Back when it was about pronouns and non-discrimination and simply being able to use the washroom, I was all on board. I am still on board with those things.
What lost it for me are the trans-activists who want to teach kids that the normal "who-am-i" issues many kids experience can/should be solved with hormones and hacking off body parts. On top of this these activists push for legislation/regulation to prevent parents from teaching their kids that they should love the body they have. Child abuse is the only reasonable way to describe what trans-activists are demanding for in schools now.