Author Topic: Gender Culture  (Read 56060 times)

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #315 on: October 10, 2018, 12:03:09 am »
I find it odd that it's directed at gay/lesbians.  What's the difference is they reject trans people and straight people?  Do trans people think "well, they've made the leap to homosexuality, can't they make one more leap for trans people".  I really don't think it's a matter of open-mindedness.  Trans people are kind of caught in the middle, literally: not quite a man, not quite a woman.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #316 on: October 10, 2018, 06:21:13 am »
So...what you're saying is there's still a chance?

Oh most definitely.  How could anyone say that they would "never".  You live a long time, you know.  Of course, my opinion is that there is 0% chance of it happening but there are plenty of stories of guys switching teams in later life so you never know...

I think I posted before that I am in a tiny minority of folks with no same-sex experience whatsoever...

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #317 on: October 10, 2018, 06:29:10 am »
There's not a case.  You're entitled to your preference.  Nobody would tell you otherwise-- some would however tell you you should feel guilty for your preferences.  That's a personal issue between you and your conscience.

If you should "feel guilty" then it seems to me they're saying you AREN'T entitled to your preference.

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People reject other people all the time, and usually for reasons far more arbitrary and capricious than being incompatible with their physical anatomy.  Height, weight, smokes, talks too much, annoying personality, thinks "The Real Housewives of..." is great TV, has weird-ass fake-looking Instagram style eyebrows, they're a Canucks fan, they wish Canada had a guy like Trump running things, they think the moon-landing is fake and chem-trails are real, ...  I mean, there's an endless list of things that are potentially huge buzz-kills for one person or another.  You can feel what works for you or what doesn't. 

I made my mind on someone once, because she hated Win Wenders' "Wings of Desire".

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These things often work at a subconscious level... they're often not a deliberate decision that someone makes.  What attracts you to a potential partner might be as innate as what draws a female peacock to the male with the most appealing plumage.  And I feel this is why the people who ask that you rethink what makes you find some partners unattractive are out to lunch-- because there isn't a conscious thought process behind it at all. And if there were a conscious thought process that people could simply revise, I would imagine that most people would simply revise themselves to be cisgendered and heterosexual-- because life would be so much easier in many different ways.

I agree that it's not as simple as a thought process.  But I think the flip side of that is that you equally can't say you KNOW the reasons you like or dislike something.  It's a cat and mouse game between your brain and your ... I don't know ... maybe your subconscious ?

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I feel like there's a huge disconnect between the idea that sexual orientation is not a choice-- which I think most people agree with-- and idea that lesbians could simply rewire themselves to find male physiology attractive if it were presented by someone who identifies herself as female.  It just doesn't work that way.

I think so too, but also wonder if some groups are going to have people talk themselves into trying it to show how liberal they are.

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And oddly (or perhaps not oddly...) I haven't seen a male-related corollary to the "cotton ceiling". I can't find anybody arguing that straight men ought to be taking trans women as sex partners, for example. This seems to be an idea aimed specifically at women. Perhaps it's based on the idea that women are just inherently flexible and men aren't. Perhaps somebody heard "every woman is just a couple of drinks away from being a lesbian" and extrapolated. I really don't know. 


I have seen it, I think.  It doesn't matter because the prevailing belief is that you pick your partner.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #318 on: October 17, 2018, 01:10:33 am »
Some might see this as a great achievement for human rights. I see it as a giant debacle for the whole of womens' athletics.

Canadian trans woman wins cycling championship.

The rules apparently allow a trans woman to compete against biologically female women as long as her male hormone levels are below a certain level.

The picture in the article illustrates why that in itself is hardly satisfactory to present a level playing field:



Dr Rachel McKinnon-- she is a professor of philosophy at the College of Charleston in South Carolina-- argues that the question of level playing field is irrelevant because it's a question of human rights:

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"We cannot have a woman legally recognized as a trans woman in society, and not be recognized that way in sports," McKinnon was quoted as saying. "Focusing on performance advantage is largely irrelevant because this is a rights issue. We shouldn't be worried about trans people taking over the Olympics. We should be worried about their fairness and human rights instead."

I strongly disagree.  The whole reason women's athletics exist is to provide biologically female girls and women, who make up roughly half the human race, a venue in which they can compete on an equal basis. But apparently fairness to them is a secondary concern even in their own sports.


This is a total joke.


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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #319 on: October 17, 2018, 05:48:53 am »
Yes.  And SJ even brought this up as a 'what if..' thinking it was ridiculous but this is where women's sports is indeed going.   


Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #320 on: October 17, 2018, 09:20:39 am »
Yes.  And SJ even brought this up as a 'what if..' thinking it was ridiculous but this is where women's sports is indeed going.

For how long? I can't imagine there won't be a pushback at some point.   Perhaps in a sport that nobody gives a crap about like short-track cycling this will fly under the radar, but I have to imagine that if this comes to tennis or gymnastics it will get shut down in a hurry.

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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #321 on: October 17, 2018, 12:44:11 pm »
I strongly disagree.  The whole reason women's athletics exist is to provide biologically female girls and women, who make up roughly half the human race, a venue in which they can compete on an equal basis.

 -k
But they don't compete on an equal basis. The assumption is that biological women lack the hormones to produce the kind of power and endurance that biological men can produce with their hormone levels. The fact of the matter is, women are not tested for their hormone levels to see if they're truly competing on a "level" playing field. A genetically female athlete could naturally produce more hormones that make her naturally more competitive than other females. With a transgender female athlete, they are often on hormone regimens that severely limit their genetically male hormones to such a degree that it is far lower than some cisgender female athletes who produce greater levels of the hormones that transgender athletes are having inhibited.

So here's the question, do we test athletes for their hormone ratios and then divide them into categories that way instead of by biological sex. Because there could be far greater biological differences in hormone levels amongst cisgender athletes than between cisgender athletes and transgender athletes. Look at the African women who were running endurance races in the Olympics and all the controversy there. And what do you do about intersexed athletes?

Personally, I don't know, but I think a hormone level test might be the answer, which makes genetic sex irrelevant and also allows an opportunity for intersex athletes to compete. Nevertheless, the cut-off is going to be arbitrary because those near the bottom of the cut-off for men and those near the top of the cut-off for women may be more closely matched than those at other levels. Perhaps we create competition strata. I really don't know.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #322 on: October 17, 2018, 02:02:02 pm »
But they don't compete on an equal basis. The assumption is that biological women lack the hormones to produce the kind of power and endurance that biological men can produce with their hormone levels. The fact of the matter is, women are not tested for their hormone levels to see if they're truly competing on a "level" playing field. A genetically female athlete could naturally produce more hormones that make her naturally more competitive than other females. With a transgender female athlete, they are often on hormone regimens that severely limit their genetically male hormones to such a degree that it is far lower than some cisgender female athletes who produce greater levels of the hormones that transgender athletes are having inhibited.

So here's the question, do we test athletes for their hormone ratios and then divide them into categories that way instead of by biological sex. Because there could be far greater biological differences in hormone levels amongst cisgender athletes than between cisgender athletes and transgender athletes. Look at the African women who were running endurance races in the Olympics and all the controversy there. And what do you do about intersexed athletes?

Personally, I don't know, but I think a hormone level test might be the answer, which makes genetic sex irrelevant and also allows an opportunity for intersex athletes to compete. Nevertheless, the cut-off is going to be arbitrary because those near the bottom of the cut-off for men and those near the top of the cut-off for women may be more closely matched than those at other levels. Perhaps we create competition strata. I really don't know.

What do you think of a 6’5” transgender female competing in hockey?   Fair?

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #323 on: October 17, 2018, 02:09:41 pm »
What do you think of a 6’5” transgender female competing in hockey?   Fair?
What do you think of a 5'4" guy competing in men's hockey? Fair?

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #324 on: October 17, 2018, 02:25:44 pm »
What do you think of a 5'4" guy competing in men's hockey? Fair?

So he should play in the women’s league?  Is that what you’re saying?   Or are you just evading the question?

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #325 on: October 17, 2018, 02:27:24 pm »
So he should play in the women’s league?  Is that what you’re saying?   Or are you just evading the question?
You go ahead and read my post that you responded to any time. I feel I've sufficiently addressed your question.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #326 on: October 17, 2018, 02:32:48 pm »
You go ahead and read my post that you responded to any time. I feel I've sufficiently addressed your question.

You evaded the question.  It’s not that hard of a question.  But it must be difficult to put aside all common sense to say that this would be OK.



Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #327 on: October 17, 2018, 02:57:57 pm »
What do you think of a 5'4" guy competing in men's hockey? Fair?

It's not equivalent. This is not just about height. Men have more upper body strength, muscle and physical stamina than women. There's a reason there are no unisex sports. Whether it's non-contact like tennis or volleyball or track and field, or contact sports like hockey, men have a physical advantage over women.

This is not rocket science. You know this. Why are you so resistant to admitting that it makes no sense and is blatantly unfair to let men compete against women - regardless of whether they see themselves as female?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline TimG

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #328 on: October 17, 2018, 05:04:12 pm »
What people seem to be missing is all sports are funded by fans willing to watch the sports. If fans see women sports turned into competitions between men pretending to women they could find something else to watch and the sport will die.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #329 on: October 17, 2018, 05:21:42 pm »
So here's the question, do we test athletes for their hormone ratios and then divide them into categories that way instead of by biological sex. Because there could be far greater biological differences in hormone levels amongst cisgender athletes than between cisgender athletes and transgender athletes. Look at the African women who were running endurance races in the Olympics and all the controversy there. And what do you do about intersexed athletes?

We need to acknowledge that genetic females are not the same biologically as trans females.  They are two separate categories.  Sports don't care about your gender identity or sexual preference etc, they care about your biological category "male" or "female" to broadly level the playing field.

I support trans people being and doing whatever they want, but I don't support pretending a trans woman is the same biologically as a genetic woman.  Hormones and plastic surgery don't change your genes or the years in puberty where biological males have far more bone, muscle, ligament growth etc. than females.  Otherwise if LeBron James or Usain Bolt discover they identify as trans women they can take hormones and still destroy most other women and turn the olympics etc into a joke.  How could that trans woman cyclists have any satisfaction in beating a bunch of genetic females?  It's ridiculous.

To me the obvious answer is to have completely separate categories for trans men and women to compete against each other, where they can also regulate artificial hormone levels and have a broadly level playing field.  Otherwise compete in your genetic category without any artificial hormone advantages.
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