Author Topic: Gender Culture  (Read 55977 times)

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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #300 on: October 09, 2018, 10:06:19 am »
I am pretty sure that this question isn't settled, ie. What people think of the phenomenon of ... this kind of rejection.

It's settled. The only possible answer is that people are entitled to their preferences.  You have to accept it... the only alternative is, I guess, rent a van.

Rejected trans people can protest the unfairness of it, just as fat people, short people, and ugly people have always done... but what else is there?  People are rejected every day for the most arbitrary, unfair, and irrational reasons, but that's life. Dating is complicated for anybody, even more complicated for gay people, and even more complicated for trans people. But a painfully unattractive cisgendered heterosexual person will probably experience an an enormous amount of rejection in their life as well, and I'm not sure that they're any less deserving of sympathy and compassion than a trans person who feels they've been "cotton ceiling"-ed.

 -k
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #301 on: October 09, 2018, 11:03:21 am »
Why is it settled?

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #302 on: October 09, 2018, 04:34:38 pm »
Why is it settled?

Because people are entitled to their preferences.  If i'm not attracted to people with blonde hair or hairy arms or any other criteria possibly imaginable then yeah I guess that's discriminatory, but there's nothing that can or should be done about it and there's nothing ethically wrong with it.  That's life.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #303 on: October 09, 2018, 04:46:52 pm »
Settled, to me, means that there isn't significant disagreement... And I mean off this board.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #304 on: October 09, 2018, 04:50:13 pm »
I don't actually know that the Stonewall group I linked to are significant or not. They seem to portray themselves that way... should self-identification of significance be accepted, or should there be some sort of gatekeeping here?  This is a complicated issue indeed.

Amnesty International's UK branch is onboard with self-declaration:
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/have-your-say-gender-recognition-act

The UK firefighters union has endorsed self-declaration for its members:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/09/20/backlash-fire-brigades-union-votes-favour-gender-self-identification/

I don't know who to look at as representing the mainstream of thought among trans advocates on this issue, but as far as I can see, self-declaration seems to be the preference.

That is my impression, too. And bringing up firefighters brings to mind the degree of affirmative action programs designed to help women get hired by organizations like the fire department. If self designation must be recognized at all times, without reference to evidence, what's to stop every man who wants to be a firefighter or police officer from declaring they're now 'women'? Wouldn't that require, under existing laws, departments to advance their application above that of males? How about the efforts to put more men on boards of directors? If a few of the men there decide to self identity as women does that take care of the problem? What about sports teams? If a male decides to call himself a woman can he play on womens basketball, baseball, and other sports teams? Can he be on the womens swim team and change in their locker room with them?

"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #305 on: October 09, 2018, 05:07:11 pm »
That is my impression, too. And bringing up firefighters brings to mind the degree of affirmative action programs designed to help women get hired by organizations like the fire department. If self designation must be recognized at all times, without reference to evidence, what's to stop every man who wants to be a firefighter or police officer from declaring they're now 'women'?

Well... let's see.... uh... nothing ?

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Wouldn't that require, under existing laws, departments to advance their application above that of males?

No.

Quote
How about the efforts to put more men on boards of directors? If a few of the men there decide to self identity as women does that take care of the problem? What about sports teams? If a male decides to call himself a woman can he play on womens basketball, baseball, and other sports teams? Can he be on the womens swim team and change in their locker room with them?

Clearly you just started finding out about this stuff.

And it will be 'settled' when somebody can convey that there is wide agreement on that...

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #306 on: October 09, 2018, 06:06:33 pm »
Well... let's see.... uh... nothing ?

No.

No? There isn't a single piece of legislation or policy written that makes ANY distinction between people who are born as women and people who declare themselves to be women. If you make a law that says anyone who declares themselves a woman has to be treated like one then they have to be allowed on those teams and have to be accorded the same privileges.

"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #307 on: October 09, 2018, 07:17:44 pm »
It's settled. The only possible answer is that people are entitled to their preferences.  You have to accept it... the only alternative is, I guess, rent a van.

Why is it settled?

I read and watched several rants from people who believe in this "cotton ceiling" idea. They insist that they're not trying to pressure anybody to have sex with anyone they don't want to, and they agree that everyone is entitled to their own preferences.  They contend that they're raising this critique as a means of highlighting transphobia among cis-lesbians, and to challenge cis-lesbians to "re-examine their biases".

There's really nothing there to discuss, other than "how guilty should I feel for having preferences?"  I don't think that's a useful topic for discussion.  It's really nobody else's business how much or how little guilt I should have for having preferences.


 -k
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #308 on: October 09, 2018, 07:20:51 pm »
No? There isn't a single piece of legislation or policy written that makes ANY distinction between people who are born as women and people who declare themselves to be women. If you make a law that says anyone who declares themselves a woman has to be treated like one then they have to be allowed on those teams and have to be accorded the same privileges.

Sorry, I misunderstood.  Women are eligible for affirmative action programs, yes.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #309 on: October 09, 2018, 07:25:00 pm »
I read and watched several rants from people who believe in this "cotton ceiling" idea. They insist that they're not trying to pressure anybody to have sex with anyone they don't want to, and they agree that everyone is entitled to their own preferences.  They contend that they're raising this critique as a means of highlighting transphobia among cis-lesbians, and to challenge cis-lesbians to "re-examine their biases".

There's really nothing there to discuss, other than "how guilty should I feel for having preferences?"  I don't think that's a useful topic for discussion.  It's really nobody else's business how much or how little guilt I should have for having preferences.


 -k

There is also a case against me, for not wanting to be with a penised woman.  Sounds like it's not settled.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #310 on: October 09, 2018, 08:06:16 pm »
I read and watched several rants from people who believe in this "cotton ceiling" idea. They insist that they're not trying to pressure anybody to have sex with anyone they don't want to, and they agree that everyone is entitled to their own preferences.  They contend that they're raising this critique as a means of highlighting transphobia among cis-lesbians, and to challenge cis-lesbians to "re-examine their biases".

There's really nothing there to discuss, other than "how guilty should I feel for having preferences?"  I don't think that's a useful topic for discussion.  It's really nobody else's business how much or how little guilt I should have for having preferences.

I didn't even know this was a known phenomena with its own term "cotton ceiling" until i just googled it after seeing you post it.

It probably comes mainly from a frustration from trans people in the difficulty of finding partners, especially non-trans partners.  I feel honest empathy for them.  Imagine going through difficult transition procedures and looking amazing but then still being rejected constantly.  I can see how it kind of feels like discrimination like in every other aspect of life of being trans.

I don't feel guilty but i feel sympathy, trans people have a damn tough road.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #311 on: October 09, 2018, 08:07:27 pm »
There is also a case against me, for not wanting to be with a penised woman.  Sounds like it's not settled.

Do you feel guilty for not wanting to be with a penised man?  Lay naked with me Michael.  Please.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #312 on: October 09, 2018, 08:50:16 pm »
Do you feel guilty for not wanting to be with a penised man?  Lay naked with me Michael.  Please.

I knew that people on here would start begging me for my body.... eventually.

I don't want penises but it's not a rule... I just have never wanted one...

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #313 on: October 09, 2018, 09:28:02 pm »
So...what you're saying is there's still a chance?
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #314 on: October 09, 2018, 11:12:01 pm »
There is also a case against me, for not wanting to be with a penised woman.  Sounds like it's not settled.

There's not a case.  You're entitled to your preference.  Nobody would tell you otherwise-- some would however tell you you should feel guilty for your preferences.  That's a personal issue between you and your conscience.

People reject other people all the time, and usually for reasons far more arbitrary and capricious than being incompatible with their physical anatomy.  Height, weight, smokes, talks too much, annoying personality, thinks "The Real Housewives of..." is great TV, has weird-ass fake-looking Instagram style eyebrows, they're a Canucks fan, they wish Canada had a guy like Trump running things, they think the moon-landing is fake and chem-trails are real, ...  I mean, there's an endless list of things that are potentially huge buzz-kills for one person or another.  You can feel what works for you or what doesn't. 

These things often work at a subconscious level... they're often not a deliberate decision that someone makes.  What attracts you to a potential partner might be as innate as what draws a female peacock to the male with the most appealing plumage.  And I feel this is why the people who ask that you rethink what makes you find some partners unattractive are out to lunch-- because there isn't a conscious thought process behind it at all. And if there were a conscious thought process that people could simply revise, I would imagine that most people would simply revise themselves to be cisgendered and heterosexual-- because life would be so much easier in many different ways.

I feel like there's a huge disconnect between the idea that sexual orientation is not a choice-- which I think most people agree with-- and idea that lesbians could simply rewire themselves to find male physiology attractive if it were presented by someone who identifies herself as female.  It just doesn't work that way.

And oddly (or perhaps not oddly...) I haven't seen a male-related corollary to the "cotton ceiling". I can't find anybody arguing that straight men ought to be taking trans women as sex partners, for example. This seems to be an idea aimed specifically at women. Perhaps it's based on the idea that women are just inherently flexible and men aren't. Perhaps somebody heard "every woman is just a couple of drinks away from being a lesbian" and extrapolated. I really don't know. 

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City