Author Topic: Gender Culture  (Read 56057 times)

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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #285 on: October 08, 2018, 01:04:04 pm »

A self-declaration of gender-identity is simply not adequate to provide for the safety of women. It invites frivolous abuse, by anybody from frat-boys who think it would be hilarious to stroll into the cheerleaders' locker room as a group, to actual sex predators like Christopher Hambrook or the English prison rapist mentioned above.

The notion of a female-only space is null and void if anyone can get in by spontaneous self-declaration. This is not okay.

And yet, that is what trans activists are demanding. There is currently a conflict in the UK between feminists and trans activists over proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act that would remove any sort of gate-keeping.
 

Some trans activists, not all, as per the article SJ posted.  Is there any case at all for allowing dangerous offenders into safe spaces for women ? 

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #286 on: October 08, 2018, 01:34:59 pm »
Some trans activists, not all, as per the article SJ posted. 

Well that seems to be where it is heading in the UK discussion. The major advocacy groups all seem to support unqualified self-declaration, and those who oppose are being targeted with accusations of hate and even threats of violence.

Is there any case at all for allowing dangerous offenders into safe spaces for women ?

Obviously not. Advocates would state that such cases have been (to date) rare, which demonstrates that this does not actually pose a serious threat to womens' safety.

 -k
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #287 on: October 08, 2018, 01:41:22 pm »
Well that seems to be where it is heading in the UK discussion. The major advocacy groups all seem to support unqualified self-declaration, and those who oppose are being targeted with accusations of hate and even threats of violence.

Cite ?  The article posted talked about a group that seems to be a minor player, at best.  That makes the article seem like bait, also.

The main group I found for the UK is in 'restructuring'.  What you'll find, even within advocacy groups, is a spectrum of opinions on practical matters.

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Obviously not. Advocates would state that such cases have been (to date) rare, which demonstrates that this does not actually pose a serious threat to womens' safety.
 

Well, that itself is a response.  If that's what they're saying then it's a tacit statement of the attacked women being acceptable losses, which I disagree with.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #288 on: October 08, 2018, 04:13:58 pm »
Cite ?  The article posted talked about a group that seems to be a minor player, at best.  That makes the article seem like bait, also.

The main group I found for the UK is in 'restructuring'.  What you'll find, even within advocacy groups, is a spectrum of opinions on practical matters.

I don't actually know that the Stonewall group I linked to are significant or not. They seem to portray themselves that way... should self-identification of significance be accepted, or should there be some sort of gatekeeping here?  This is a complicated issue indeed.

Amnesty International's UK branch is onboard with self-declaration:
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/have-your-say-gender-recognition-act

The UK firefighters union has endorsed self-declaration for its members:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/09/20/backlash-fire-brigades-union-votes-favour-gender-self-identification/

I don't know who to look at as representing the mainstream of thought among trans advocates on this issue, but as far as I can see, self-declaration seems to be the preference.


 -k
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #289 on: October 08, 2018, 04:56:20 pm »
Right, but what about male-born sex offenders declaring themselves women or any sex offenders using the rules to their advantage ?

And... is this surprising in a system that does things like this:

https://www.nsnews.com/ontario-student-leaves-n-s-university-after-alleged-rapist-returns-to-campus-1.23456296

I'm not saying that the system shouldn't take care of every single victim: it should.  But this issue may be about offenders gaming the system more than it is about trans issues specifically.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #290 on: October 08, 2018, 06:33:06 pm »
I'm sure that there are all kinds of situations where predators or some sort or another could find a way to slip through the rules that nobody had anticipated.

In the two instances that have been mentioned, what I find upsetting is that the kind of common-sense gate-keeping that could have prevented these incidents is exactly the kind of thing that some significant portion of the trans activists movement is directly arguing against.

 -k
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #291 on: October 08, 2018, 06:59:36 pm »
I'm sure that there are all kinds of situations where predators or some sort or another could find a way to slip through the rules that nobody had anticipated.

Well, yes.  I mean we kind of have one in front of us already.

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In the two instances that have been mentioned, what I find upsetting is that the kind of common-sense gate-keeping that could have prevented these incidents is exactly the kind of thing that some significant portion of the trans activists movement is directly arguing against.

What we know is that the system appears to have failed.  They owe us an explanation when this happens.

I'm saying I agree that this shouldn't happen, but the broader implications aren't clear to me.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #292 on: October 08, 2018, 07:13:34 pm »
While browsing articles about trans activism, TERFs, and so-on, I stumbled onto something that left me pretty much speechless: "the Cotton Ceiling".  Cotton, as in underwear.

Basically, the premise is that cisgender lesbians will let trans lesbians into their social circles and their safe-spaces... but not into their panties. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_ceiling

Shockingly, the large majority of cisgender lesbians just aren't interested in having sex with people who have male anatomy. Astounding! Who could have imagined this?

This is apparently very frustrating for some portion of the trans lesbian community, who blame it on ... transphobia!  While many people might assume that cis lesbians aren't into penises because they're lesbians, some trans activists have decided that cis lesbians are hiding behind the excuse of their sexual preference because they're actually transphobic.  The whole notion basically comes down to the idea that trans women are women because they say they are women, and therefore lesbians should acknowledge them as such by considering them as potential sex partners, **** or not.

To me this comes across as being incredibly invalidating. For a group that constantly complains that their identity is being invalidated, I would expect them to have a little more consideration to others on that front.

I also find it paternalistic and vaguely reminiscent of the ol' "if you think you don't like dick, you probably just haven't tried the right one yet!"

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #293 on: October 08, 2018, 07:41:29 pm »
https://hazlitt.net/feature/between-space

An outstanding essay on 'in-between' gender.

I read it, and I just couldn't quite get what she was trying to express.     I've read similar things before, and as before this one just doesn't connect me with what dysphoria actually feels like.  She talks about things that I can relate to-- feeling drawn to 'tomboy' activities, feeling insecure about her body, feeling insecure against conventional beauty standards, feeling insecure about the image she projected to the public-- but those are very widespread female experiences and they don't lead most girls to doubt their gender identity.

I think she is trying to express something that you can't actually understand unless you've felt it.  Like, I've had anxiety over my weight before, but I've never felt the body image dysphoria that people who suffer eating disorders do. 

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline TimG

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #294 on: October 08, 2018, 07:46:27 pm »
This is apparently very frustrating for some portion of the trans lesbian community, who blame it on ... transphobia!
I saw the same data reported elsewhere which established that trans had the most success dating based on their actual sex. i.e. gay males and trans women, straight males and trans men, etc. It is almost as if their imaginary gender identity was irrelevant to potential mates! Of course, it was all blamed on trans-phobia which made me wonder. Are gay men misogynist because they don't date women?

Offline TimG

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #295 on: October 08, 2018, 07:54:29 pm »
I've never felt the body image dysphoria that people who suffer eating disorders do.
Ironically, when they treat eating disorders getting the patient to accept their body the primary objective. If they treated eating disorders like gender dysphoria they would tell patients that they are a thin person trapped in a fat persons body and offer surgery and drugs to make their body better match their self image. Why exactly am I supposed to think that treatment of gender dysphoria is not medical malpractice?

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #296 on: October 08, 2018, 08:16:32 pm »

Shockingly, the large majority of cisgender lesbians just aren't interested in having sex with people who have male anatomy. Astounding! Who could have imagined this?


I have a friend who is going through the mirror-image of this problem.  Luckily, the politics precludes me from actually commenting on it....

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This is apparently very frustrating for some portion of the trans lesbian community, who blame it on ... transphobia!  While many people might assume that cis lesbians aren't into penises because they're lesbians, some trans activists have decided that cis lesbians are hiding behind the excuse of their sexual preference because they're actually transphobic.  The whole notion basically comes down to the idea that trans women are women because they say they are women, and therefore lesbians should acknowledge them as such by considering them as potential sex partners, **** or not.

To me this comes across as being incredibly invalidating. For a group that constantly complains that their identity is being invalidated, I would expect them to have a little more consideration to others on that front.

I also find it paternalistic and vaguely reminiscent of the ol' "if you think you don't like dick, you probably just haven't tried the right one yet!"

 -k

Dunno.  Do people find it racist for folks to be attracted to the same race ? 

I file this under the "some people are nutty" category...

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #297 on: October 08, 2018, 08:18:31 pm »
I read it, and I just couldn't quite get what she was trying to express.     I've read similar things before, and as before this one just doesn't connect me with what dysphoria actually feels like.  She talks about things that I can relate to-- feeling drawn to 'tomboy' activities, feeling insecure about her body, feeling insecure against conventional beauty standards, feeling insecure about the image she projected to the public-- but those are very widespread female experiences and they don't lead most girls to doubt their gender identity.

It seems to me she is talking about masculine and feminine typing taking attention away from the middle ground.   I don't know it's dysphoric as much as it is the blocking of a range of visible identities. 

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #298 on: October 08, 2018, 10:07:53 pm »
Here's a trans person arguing that if you say you won't date a trans person then you're being discriminatory.  I imagine it's pretty frustrating being trans since the dating pool is so small, but don't try to make people feel bad for not being attracted to women with penises.

"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #299 on: October 09, 2018, 08:47:54 am »
I am pretty sure that this question isn't settled, ie. What people think of the phenomenon of ... this kind of rejection.