Author Topic: Gender Culture  (Read 55967 times)

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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #270 on: October 07, 2018, 11:50:38 am »
That would be nice but we know that isn't always the case. You can speak out, here or there, on some issue with which many, even most people agree, and still be castigated by your own party, not to mention the media. We saw the same here with Maxime Bernier, as one example. Kellie Lietch might be another example, though I'm not certain how seriously she believed in her issue. And if you're not a politician you can still be easily fired, as the article points out, if accused of 'transphobia'.

Fair enough - and you and I will disagree on whether they were given a fair hearing for their ideas.  For the time being, let me agree with you that immigration reform was a good idea that needed to be heard, and that the media, the establishment and people weren't ready hear it.

You can't say, as the article did, that they were 'silenced'.  They continue to speak out and their ideas are getting some reception.

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I think the main point of the article, though, was that there is no serious agreement from science on this issue, and that society is moving to change laws on the basis of claims made by activists which have no scientific validity and no common sense. I vaguely recall from early on in this topic people suggesting men could shower with women by claiming to be women and that being ridiculed as absurd, as if common sense would not allow it. Well, it's actually happening in the UK.

And in Canada.  There's little evidence as far as I can see that science is being told they can't research this and that will be part of the conversation.

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I think conservatives mainly use these sorts of claims to attempt to point out to those, mainly on the Left, who are ardent supporters of Islamic rights and Muslim immigration that the way in which Canada's values will inevitably be influenced by them is in the opposite direction to everything they state they believe in.

Why 'inevitably' ?  Why should the influence of a new religion, with no roots, and low amounts of representation be inevitable ?

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #271 on: October 07, 2018, 12:44:12 pm »
The story about the rapist deciding to "transition" and being relocated to a women's prison makes my blood boil.  I am speechless at the scale of idiocy involved in that decision.  Hopefully people were sacked and sued.


Remember Rachel Dolezal, the white woman who "identifies" as black, worked at the NAACP, darkens her skin, wears her hair in African styles, and so-on?  One of the reasons that progressives found her so offensive is that they felt it was impossible for somebody who grew up in a life of white privilege to actually understand the black experience.

Has anybody bothered to apply the same logic to trans women?


Why 'inevitably' ?  Why should the influence of a new religion, with no roots, and low amounts of representation be inevitable ?

Didn't Toronto already provide gender-segregated swimming hours at public pools to accommodate Muslims? Never mind 'inevitable,' it seems like this influence is already underway.

Ponder for a moment that on the one hand we're being told that women should accept biologically male persons in their showers and changing rooms without complaint, while simultaneously that religious groups desire for gender-segregated activities should be accepted.

I hope some transgender activist brings her dong to Muslima swim day to fully square this circle.

 -k
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #272 on: October 07, 2018, 01:01:05 pm »
The story about the rapist deciding to "transition" and being relocated to a women's prison makes my blood boil.  I am speechless at the scale of idiocy involved in that decision.  Hopefully people were sacked and sued.

Was it reversed ?

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Didn't Toronto already provide gender-segregated swimming hours at public pools to accommodate Muslims? Never mind 'inevitable,' it seems like this influence is already underway.

Ok - well I will firstly acknowledge that you are all right, and I haven't considered the level of influence, and it's more than I thought.  But if accommodation is part of our values, as evidenced from things like Sikh headgarments being allowed in Legion halls (1980s) then certainly accommodation is about an ongoing discussion and some back-and-forth also.

So, although I will say that I didn't consider the pool decision I still think this is an overstatement:
"Canada's values will inevitably be influenced by them is in the opposite direction to everything they state they believe in

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #273 on: October 07, 2018, 02:12:43 pm »
Fair enough - and you and I will disagree on whether they were given a fair hearing for their ideas.  For the time being, let me agree with you that immigration reform was a good idea that needed to be heard, and that the media, the establishment and people weren't ready hear it.

I continue to harken back to the Lietch thing since the poobahs of the party united against it despite a poll showing 89% of tory supporters agreed with her. And you'll note it's NOT being discussed any more. As for Bernier, even his extremely mild comments caused him to have to leave his party before they could throw him out. The people were certainly ready to hear such things, but the media and political elites most definitely are NOT.

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And in Canada.  There's little evidence as far as I can see that science is being told they can't research this and that will be part of the conversation.

Let's get real here. Science does not research much of anything without someone funding it. Usually government. Government is not funding any research. Who else will? And what independent social science/psychology researcher will get into this and dig out information which might get him or her labelled as bigoted by their peers and the university community?

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Why 'inevitably' ?  Why should the influence of a new religion, with no roots, and low amounts of representation be inevitable ?

That religion is growing rapidly, and there is no case on record, in all of history, of Islam fading away from anywhere except under military force. And what is Canada and its values and beliefs but the sum of the people who make up it's constituent communities?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #274 on: October 07, 2018, 02:21:04 pm »
Was it reversed ?


Hard to find a lot on this since all the 'respectable' papers are behind pay walls. But this from the Daily Mail suggests it's not limited to him. The problem is the insistence that if a person SAYS they're of the other gender then that must be respected. No other evidence is really required. At the moment, under actual law, their claim can be looked at and a decision made, but as was reported in the Spectator report, there is a move to change that to make respect for their claim absolute, no matter the lack of evidence.

The latest figures showed there were 125 transgender prisoners in England and Wales up to the end of March 2017, an increase from 70 in the previous year.
About 25 of those are thought to be in women's jails — and media reports suggest six of them are sex offenders.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6169813/Rapist-Karen-Whites-ex-girlfriend-says-gender-change-sham.html
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #275 on: October 07, 2018, 02:51:19 pm »
I continue to harken back to the Lietch thing since the poobahs of the party united against it despite a poll showing 89% of tory supporters agreed with her.

Sure, but she was not silenced.  Harper pushed some of the ideas and Bernier founded a whole party on renewing immigration policy.

So when you say silenced it sounds hyperbolic and conspiratorial.

 
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Let's get real here. Science does not research much of anything without someone funding it. Usually government. Government is not funding any research. Who else will? And what independent social science/psychology researcher will get into this and dig out information which might get him or her labelled as bigoted by their peers and the university community?

I don't know who does/is researching it, so I'd like to see a cite.
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That religion is growing rapidly, and there is no case on record, in all of history, of Islam fading away from anywhere except under military force. And what is Canada and its values and beliefs but the sum of the people who make up it's constituent communities?

I am acknowledging the last point.

You can't use history as evidence of the religion as evidence that they're immutable.  Christianity was burning people at the same time.  Also I have posted studies showing that attitudes in US Muslims are mutable, so we may be seeing the effect of Westernization. 

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #276 on: October 07, 2018, 02:54:31 pm »
Hard to find a lot on this since all the 'respectable' papers are behind pay walls. 

Six sex offenders seems like enough to start a public conversation.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #277 on: October 07, 2018, 09:52:36 pm »
Was it reversed ?

Yes... after four complaints of sexual assault over 3 months, he was returned to a men's prison.

Prison Service: "lol, oops!"

Gotta break a few eggs, right?


Ok - well I will firstly acknowledge that you are all right, and I haven't considered the level of influence, and it's more than I thought.  But if accommodation is part of our values, as evidenced from things like Sikh headgarments being allowed in Legion halls (1980s) then certainly accommodation is about an ongoing discussion and some back-and-forth also.

So, although I will say that I didn't consider the pool decision I still think this is an overstatement:
"Canada's values will inevitably be influenced by them is in the opposite direction to everything they state they believe in

I'm not sure it's an overstatement. Most of our newcomers are from places that are far more socially conservative than we are and bring with them cultural and religious values that are in direct conflict with progressive views.  This is a dilemma that has plagued progressives on more than a few occasions. Debates in many countries over oppressive garments for women are an obvious example.

 -k
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #278 on: October 07, 2018, 10:06:16 pm »

Yes... after four complaints of sexual assault over 3 months, he was returned to a men's prison.

Ok.   

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I'm not sure it's an overstatement.

I'm not either.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #279 on: October 07, 2018, 10:09:05 pm »
I continue to harken back to the Lietch thing since the poobahs of the party united against it despite a poll showing 89% of tory supporters agreed with her. And you'll note it's NOT being discussed any more. As for Bernier, even his extremely mild comments caused him to have to leave his party before they could throw him out. The people were certainly ready to hear such things, but the media and political elites most definitely are NOT.

The thing that bothered me about the debate around Kellie Leitch's "Canadian values screening" idea is that while she was frequently compared to Trump, and many people called the idea racist or xenophobic or whatever... I don't recall anybody ever actually explaining what was wrong with it.


When people were challenged for explanations of what was actually so awful about it, I recall hearing responses like "well, they could just lie to get in" or "it would take too many interviewers".   Ok, those are reasonable arguments against the proposal.  But those shortcomings only get you to "impractical" or "expensive", not "Trumpian" or "racist".


A lot of our newcomers come from places where people like me are publicly flogged or sent to prison.  I don't think it would be such a bad thing if people coming from those places were screened.

 -k
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #280 on: October 08, 2018, 09:15:43 am »
The thing that bothered me about the debate around Kellie Leitch's "Canadian values screening" idea is that while she was frequently compared to Trump, and many people called the idea racist or xenophobic or whatever... I don't recall anybody ever actually explaining what was wrong with it.


When people were challenged for explanations of what was actually so awful about it, I recall hearing responses like "well, they could just lie to get in" or "it would take too many interviewers".   Ok, those are reasonable arguments against the proposal.  But those shortcomings only get you to "impractical" or "expensive", not "Trumpian" or "racist".


A lot of our newcomers come from places where people like me are publicly flogged or sent to prison.  I don't think it would be such a bad thing if people coming from those places were screened.

 -k

I replied here:
https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/canada-discussion-forum/immigration-policy/msg33387/#msg33387

As its more on topic there and I want to post something actually about gender here.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #281 on: October 08, 2018, 09:26:21 am »
https://hazlitt.net/feature/between-space

An outstanding essay on 'in-between' gender.

I feel like my entire life has been spent as an intellectual.  Per the definition:

1. relating to the intellect.
"children need intellectual stimulation"
synonyms:   mental, cerebral, cognitive, psychological; More

It has nothing to do with being intelligent.   I have met people who were actually not bright who were fascinating intellectuals, with whom I could share knowledge theories and so on.  It's really a body of interest.

But being an intellectual, growing up in the 1960s and 1970s, made you suspect as a male.  The strong gender typing was nothing like it was in the 1950s but still worse than the 1980s where 'gender bending' came into vogue in pop culture, and the 1990s when taboos around homosexuality broke, and eventually there was a galaxy of recognizable types of masculinity/femininity and sexual preference. 

Today's world of incels and TERFs is probably impossible for someone older than me to understand, and most men my age just shut up about it.  But to me, the issues around gender are defined around freedoms and unity, ie. how to allow freedoms and also unity.  Liberalism seems like the natural place from which to grow unity, but the conflicts come when freedoms come into conflict.

I wonder what the world will be like in 20 years.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #282 on: October 08, 2018, 09:28:26 am »
Six sex offenders seems like enough to start a public conversation.

The point of both this and the Spectator story is that this has been rushed forward in a very few years because progressives have enthusiastically embraced transgender as the cause du jour. Confusion and uncertainty about sexuality, gender and social roles is perfectly normal among kids, esp as they reach adolescence. It doesn't mean you're bloody trans anything. But ignorant adults are rushing to embrace the notion and change these confused kids lives and imposing a stern orthodoxy on anyone who complains.

Look at those two girl guide councilors questioning having young girls and boys in tents and showers together - fired. Look at the mother whose 13 year old daughter was complaining about the 'girl' with an **** staring at her in the shower. The school said it was her daughter who had a problem. Yet in most of these cases there's damn all science or even psychological counselling involved.

That self-declared woman who **** women in prison had done nothing to transition to anything. But they simply took him at his word - excuse me, her word - and stuck him into a prison with women. It's become politically incorrect to question people's self-assigned gender.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #283 on: October 08, 2018, 09:40:44 am »
The point of both this and the Spectator story is that this has been rushed forward in a very few years because progressives have enthusiastically embraced transgender as the cause du jour.

It's hard to defend putting a male liar in a women's prison to re-offend, so of course I will not do that.  So if you want to define "rushed forward" as THAT policy I of course will degree.  The devil is in the details.  A dumb policy like that may cause us to consider absolutes and practicalities, which is part of making change happen.

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Confusion and uncertainty about sexuality, gender and social roles is perfectly normal among kids, esp as they reach adolescence. It doesn't mean you're bloody trans anything. But ignorant adults are rushing to embrace the notion and change these confused kids lives and imposing a stern orthodoxy on anyone who complains.

I agree.  Again, we're implementing change now, so we have to discuss the details.  We are not at the point of considering whether trans rights should exist or not.
 
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 01:00:24 pm by MH »

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #284 on: October 08, 2018, 12:59:00 pm »
It's hard to defend putting a male liar in a women's prison to re-offend, so of course I will not do that.  So if you want to define "rushed forward" as THAT policy I of course will degree.  The devil is in the details.  A dumb policy like that may cause us to consider absolutes and practicalities, which is part of making change happen.

I agree.  Again, we're implementing change now, so we have to discuss the details.  We are not at the point of considering whether trans rights should exist or not.


Here's one from Canada, that I'd never heard of before.  I found a number of references to this case, but a Toronto Sun article about the sentencing is the only cite I could find.

Serial sex predator claims to be transgender so that he can gain access to a womens' shelter and commit sex assaults.


A self-declaration of gender-identity is simply not adequate to provide for the safety of women. It invites frivolous abuse, by anybody from frat-boys who think it would be hilarious to stroll into the cheerleaders' locker room as a group, to actual sex predators like Christopher Hambrook or the English prison rapist mentioned above.

The notion of a female-only space is null and void if anyone can get in by spontaneous self-declaration. This is not okay.

And yet, that is what trans activists are demanding. There is currently a conflict in the UK between feminists and trans activists over proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act that would remove any sort of gate-keeping.

Trans activists' take:
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/gender-recognition-act

Article regarding the UK GRA debate:
https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/07/03/a-system-of-gender-self-identification-would-put-women-at-risk

 -k
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 01:03:38 pm by kimmy »
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