Author Topic: Gender Culture  (Read 56003 times)

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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2017, 01:12:01 pm »
Whaaaaat ?  That's a complete non-sequitur.  How did you even get there ?

Addressing BC_Cheque earlier on the subject of whether the hypothetical Muslim woman's wish for a dong-free environment should be respected, you said:  "Rights don't 'trump' each other but they have to be resolved when in conflict.  Religious rights already supersede human rights in several specific examples.  It seems to me, reading this paragraph, that you may not realize that."

You seem fairly set on the idea that religious views merit consideration above and beyond what someone's personal conscience is, as a matter of law.

You asked why some food choices are protected by law and I answered you.

I wasn't discussing "protected by law".  I was scoffing at the notion that BC_C's vegetarianism, which is a matter of deeply-held conscience, is viewed as being less sincere or less worthy of respect than someone who is a vegetarian because a magic book tells them so.

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I don't know, but it seems to me excluding men is reasonably rationalized as a way to provide space for women.  I don't know how else these things would be decided.

For some portion of women who this safe space has been provided for, the presence of trans people will eliminate any sense of safety.

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I don't mean to trivialize those feelings but to point out how using such arguments would not be acceptable in any other context, and yet are seen as acceptable here.

It seems to me that characterizing objections to dongs in the locker room as "aesthetics problems for the delicate" is pretty trivializing.

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This quote comes from the perspective that trans women simply can not be seen as women.  It's an understandable point of view, but it isn't aligned with the emerging view (I can't call it a consensus yet) of human rights for trans people.

It might not align with the view of some in the ultra-progressive and Ivory Tower world, I agree. I first off think that any woman who says she's in favor of this should get in a locker room and change while a naked male person watches her, to put her money where her mouth is.  It's really easy to *say* you're in favor with something and trivialize or insult the objections of those who don't share your view, but when rubber meets road how many of these ultra-progressives and Ivory Tower types will live up to their talk?

As for whether it's possible to see trans women as women, all I can say is that there's a limit. When it comes to day to day interaction, sure, I have no problem.  In the shower? I doubt it. As a romantic partner? Absolutely not.

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Yes, because of the dynamic of providing a place where people feel safe.  The idea of excluding me from a space because of my gender is an affront to my individual rights, because it assumes I am a risk, however on the whole it provides rights to a group.  The principle, in theory, is reasonable accommodation. 

As such:

A 2015 study [PDF] reported that trans Ontarians had “nearly universally reported” experiences of transphobia, and 67 per cent “feared they would die young.”

I absolutely understand that trans people are at great risk of encountering hatred and violence.  And I have no wish to contribute to someone feeling unsafe. At the same time, I won't sacrifice my own sense of security in favor of someone else's.  I believe that many women-- the silent majority, probably-- feel the same.

And as I mentioned earlier, I think that Body Blitz thinks so as well.  I think that they've taken this position not because they are hateful people, but because they know that allowing penises into their ****, women-only environment will be a grave threat to their continued financial viability. I believe that many women will not kick up a fuss over the admission of penises, but will simply decide to stop going to Body Blitz.

Hypothetically, if the human rights commission and the fair play committee and the lawyers and whoever else tell Body Blitz that they have to allow dongs in their spa, and Body Blitz ends up closing 3 months later so that nobody has this safe-space anymore, will that be a tremendous victory for human rights?

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City