Author Topic: Gender Culture  (Read 56063 times)

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guest7

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #255 on: November 12, 2017, 12:04:10 pm »
Well you are accusing me of lying.  Do you think I lie a lot, or.... ?

Okay, if you're going to get all serious, I apologise.  I don't think you are a liar.  I thought you were being deliberately obtuse in order to be annoying.

Sheesh...

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #256 on: November 12, 2017, 12:17:33 pm »
Okay, if you're going to get all serious, I apologise.  I don't think you are a liar.  I thought you being deliberately obtuse in order to be annoying.

Sheesh...

Well, I wasn't.  And I still don't understand what was being said.  But I posted my idea for tagging outrage **** in another thread, so all good.

guest7

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #257 on: November 12, 2017, 12:30:49 pm »
Well, I wasn't.  And I still don't understand what was being said.  But I posted my idea for tagging outrage **** in another thread, so all good.

But you know what'll happen.  The argument will be then become about what was tagged and by whom, instead of the subject itself.

The xenophobic/snowflake tagging of my concerns, dammit!

Notice how I was fair there?

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #258 on: November 12, 2017, 04:30:11 pm »
Of course.  If I post something about pervasive and systemic abuse of the legal system.  Then I post something about a single person who did something bad, then why am I posting ?  What are the audiences ? 

Posting because you are pissed off at a caricature idiot is fine, but people don't/won't care about it as much as a larger issue. 

But this IS a larger issue. And it's not a single idiot, but an organization. It also falls into line with what professors at universities in Canada and the US have said about all those scurrying human resources discrimination and diversity workers urging students to file formal complaints at anything that annoys them. And it's a warning of what our new government bill might bring to us here.

I remember when the first child **** law was introduced. Back then it was okay to be against it and almost everyone was. Anyway, artists warned that under the broad legislation the police could march into galleries and arrest respected artists. The Tories sneered at that as ridiculous. Once the bill was passed into law the first thing the police did was march into galleries and arrest artists.

People defending Bill C-16 sneered at the idea it could get people in trouble for using the wrong made-up pronouns. I don't think so.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 04:33:56 pm by SirJohn »
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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #259 on: November 12, 2017, 05:23:27 pm »
But this IS a larger issue. And it's not a single idiot, but an organization. It also falls into line with what professors at universities in Canada and the US have said about all those scurrying human resources discrimination and diversity workers urging students to file formal complaints at anything that annoys them. And it's a warning of what our new government bill might bring to us here.

I disagree.  I posted on this thread, or the other one, about Kellog's being accused of racism.  That's really indicative of nothing.  It's easy moralizing and I for one don't see a need to discuss it.  If you do, fine.  But I'd like to be able to get to larger discussions somehow if people don't mind the tagging.

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I remember when the first child **** law was introduced. Back then it was okay to be against it and almost everyone was. Anyway, artists warned that under the broad legislation the police could march into galleries and arrest respected artists. The Tories sneered at that as ridiculous. Once the bill was passed into law the first thing the police did was march into galleries and arrest artists.

People defending Bill C-16 sneered at the idea it could get people in trouble for using the wrong made-up pronouns. I don't think so.

Your example has nothing to do with what I am calling outrage ****.  That's a discussion about policy.

"A librarian in Vermont who is black said a white person couldn't check out a book." 

Who.  Cares.

guest7

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #260 on: November 12, 2017, 06:13:03 pm »
I disagree.  I posted on this thread, or the other one, about Kellog's being accused of racism.  That's really indicative of nothing.  It's easy moralizing and I for one don't see a need to discuss it.  If you do, fine.  But I'd like to be able to get to larger discussions somehow if people don't mind the tagging.

Your example has nothing to do with what I am calling outrage ****.  That's a discussion about policy.

"A librarian in Vermont who is black said a white person couldn't check out a book." 

Who.  Cares.

It's probably because someone would care if a white librarian said a black person couldn't check out a book.  Either way someone gets nothing to read, purely based on their skin colour.

This isn't the UN.  It's an internet forum.  I always assumed that if someone posted, they cared.  Likewise if someone responded.

And that Kellog's thing is weird, like it or not.  I for one am glad you posted it.

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #261 on: November 12, 2017, 06:17:38 pm »
It's probably because someone would care if a white librarian said a black person couldn't check out a book.  Either way someone gets nothing to read, purely based on their skin colour.

But we don't HAVE to care about that do we ?  Is a grown adult surprised to discover that there are **** in the world ?

Here's something: A guy called somebody the n-word in Alabama yesterday !  National news ! 

Basically, it's entertainment and that is all.  That's why I would like to separate it from the other kind of discussion.


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This isn't the UN.  It's an internet forum.  I always assumed that if someone posted, they cared.  Likewise if someone responded.

I have a thread where I put personal observations about stupid little parts of my life.  It's my own thread and I am not going to pollute the forum with a separate thread on that every day. 

Maybe this is just housekeeping.

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And that Kellog's thing is weird, like it or not.  I for one am glad you posted it.

Well, maybe it works as weird news because it's kind of funny but still...

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #262 on: November 13, 2017, 12:49:05 pm »
I disagree.  I posted on this thread, or the other one, about Kellog's being accused of racism.  That's really indicative of nothing.  It's easy moralizing and I for one don't see a need to discuss it.  If you do, fine.

But I DIDN'T find the need to discuss that. And the difference is that didn't involve government mandated behaviour or the possibility of naive, if well-meaning legislation running amok through the human rights industry. Or the way the Left seems to find its beliefs so incredibly obvious and moral and just that they insist everyone else must bow to them - or else.

As an example, the law society of Ontario is attempting to mandate that all lawyers commit to a 'statement of principles' to promote 'equality, diversity and inclusion' which will include a commitment that will be enforced in some way by the law society. Where does the law society get off on forcing private individuals to commit to affirmative action anyway?   http://nationalpost.com/opinion/christie-blatchford-its-1984-all-over-again-for-ontario-lawyers-arguing-against-compelled-speech
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #263 on: November 13, 2017, 06:01:46 pm »
And the difference is that didn't involve government mandated behaviour or the possibility of naive, if well-meaning legislation running amok through the human rights industry. Or the way the Left seems to find its beliefs so incredibly obvious and moral and just that they insist everyone else must bow to them - or else.

I'm sure I could find a reason to make a big deal about the Kellogs thing if I wanted too.  The fact is, it's just a couple of idiot students.  I just let it go.  It's not the leading edge of anything, it's just the outrage du jour.

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As an example, the law society of Ontario is attempting to mandate that all lawyers commit to a 'statement of principles' to promote 'equality, diversity and inclusion' which will include a commitment that will be enforced in some way by the law society. Where does the law society get off on forcing private individuals to commit to affirmative action anyway?   http://nationalpost.com/opinion/christie-blatchford-its-1984-all-over-again-for-ontario-lawyers-arguing-against-compelled-speech

You are unable to assess scale, that is clear to me.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #264 on: November 13, 2017, 06:16:19 pm »
I'm sure I could find a reason to make a big deal about the Kellogs thing if I wanted too.  The fact is, it's just a couple of idiot students.  I just let it go.  It's not the leading edge of anything, it's just the outrage du jour.

Nobody gives a **** about your Kellogg's story. Why you keep drawing this up to wave like a flag at anyone who posts anything you disapprove of is really quite beyond me.
I already pointed out the vast difference between the Kellogg's story and this. Since you didn't choose to argue the point why are you still complaining?
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You are unable to assess scale, that is clear to me.

No, I just have a different scale than yours. Yours is based on issues that matter to the Left and mine is based on issues that matter to the Right.
The difference being when you post something stupid I have no interest in talking about I simply don't talk about it. Whereas when I or anyone else posts something you don't want to talk about you insist on giving us your opinion about how beneath you the topic is and how we should instead be discussing something you care about.



"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #265 on: November 13, 2017, 07:55:01 pm »
Nobody gives a **** about your Kellogg's story. Why you keep drawing this up to wave like a flag at anyone who posts anything you disapprove of is really quite beyond me.

It was in the news, so somebody cares.

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No, I just have a different scale than yours. Yours is based on issues that matter to the Left and mine is based on issues that matter to the Right.

You totally missed my point.  The Osgoode Hall deal is not at all the same scale.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #266 on: October 07, 2018, 10:35:48 am »
So to see to just what idiocy the progressives can plunge us, it's always good to look abroad. None of their ideas originate here, after all, and that includes their fixation on 'trans rights'. And as always, the Europeans, being more 'progressive' are more idiotic about what they consider to be social justice issues, and their politicians more cowardly.

In the past month, the casual consumer of news media might have seen any or all of the following stories in the headlines: a transgender rapist was sent to a women’s prison where she used ‘her ****’ to sexually assault women; Girl Guide leaders were expelled for questioning a policy of allowing transgender girls (with penises) to share tents and showers with girls born female; a Durham university student sacked as editor of a philosophy journal for tweeting an article (by me) which asked if it is a crime to say women don’t have penises; the removal on grounds of transphobia of a billboard which repeated the dictionary definition of ‘woman’ as ‘adult human female’.


https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/trans-rights-have-gone-wrong/
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #267 on: October 07, 2018, 10:58:44 am »
1.  None of their ideas originate here, after all, and that includes their fixation on 'trans rights'.

2. And as always, the Europeans, being more 'progressive' are more idiotic about what they consider to be social justice issues, and their politicians more cowardly.
  https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/trans-rights-have-gone-wrong/
1. Well... depending on what you mean I might disagree.  The idea of "human rights" originated with French Enlightenment philosophy so ok on that... but my gay friends will universally name "Stonewall" as being THE spark to gay rights, and they happened in 1969 in NYC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_liberation#Origins_and_history_of_movement

2. Well... maybe ?  3 European nations legalized same sex marriage before Canada and Canada was at 51% as I remember reading:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage

Does "cowardly" mean agreeing with popular opinion or defying it ?  Hmmm.

3. The "in the news" stuff doesn't affect me.  The "news" will send us whatever we eat up.  I think the Spectator article is serious enough though, so I will look at that in particular.

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #268 on: October 07, 2018, 11:21:00 am »
So far, I have a problem with these terms used by the article:

‘social contagion’
'disproportionate number of girls'
'prominent campaigner for transgender rights'
'Trans rights have gone wrong'

These are all subjective terms and claims, or pejoratives, and the culmination of fears is presented as:
'All raise serious issues of public policy, yet politicians are silent, fearful of questioning the trans-rights advocates and the consequences of their orthodoxy.'

My response is: be brave and state your case.  If you have a valid point you will have people behind you.  That is, after all, the role of a public figure: to speak out.

As for the concerns, maybe start with a more established group such as:
http://www.pfc.org.uk/index.html

As the article itself states: 'Under reforms advocated by many (but not all) transgender campaigners, '.  Yes, that is to say that all LGBT and feminists are not on the same page with regards to gatekeepers or the sometimes-vague situations conveyed in the article.

And please keep in mind as all of this becomes law, conservatives will be stating how Canada's progressive trans rights are a good reason to screen Muslims who want to come to Canada...



Offline SirJohn

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #269 on: October 07, 2018, 11:32:43 am »
My response is: be brave and state your case.  If you have a valid point you will have people behind you.  That is, after all, the role of a public figure: to speak out.

That would be nice but we know that isn't always the case. You can speak out, here or there, on some issue with which many, even most people agree, and still be castigated by your own party, not to mention the media. We saw the same here with Maxime Bernier, as one example. Kellie Lietch might be another example, though I'm not certain how seriously she believed in her issue. And if you're not a politician you can still be easily fired, as the article points out, if accused of 'transphobia'.

I think the main point of the article, though, was that there is no serious agreement from science on this issue, and that society is moving to change laws on the basis of claims made by activists which have no scientific validity and no common sense. I vaguely recall from early on in this topic people suggesting men could shower with women by claiming to be women and that being ridiculed as absurd, as if common sense would not allow it. Well, it's actually happening in the UK.

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And please keep in mind as all of this becomes law, conservatives will be stating how Canada's progressive trans rights are a good reason to screen Muslims who want to come to Canada...

I think conservatives mainly use these sorts of claims to attempt to point out to those, mainly on the Left, who are ardent supporters of Islamic rights and Muslim immigration that the way in which Canada's values will inevitably be influenced by them is in the opposite direction to everything they state they believe in.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 11:36:23 am by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum