Canadian Politics Today

"We have accepted for millennia that religions may discriminate against women, because **** women amirite?  But discriminating against the transes is completely unacceptable! The courts must intervene at once!"

 -k

Yeah. It may take a trans person to set court precedent. 

That doesn’t mean that I think the discrimination against women all this time was ok.  Has there been a woman who has taken up a case like this to court?   I’m not aware of any, but please point to any cases I don’t know about.

Why is the temperature up in the forum now?

There's a third kind of person: bad faith idiots who invent arguments that no one has made. That's you. You're the idiot.

The argument is trans women have such a huge advantage over natal born women that they cannot be allowed to compete, if they lose (which they do, often) that's an argument against the size of such advantages, dummy!

Literally every single post you make is filled with hatred and negative energy.

Literally every single post you make is filled with hatred and negative energy.

Cry more

People seem to not understand how big the difference between male athletes and female athletes is.  The fastest times ever run by a woman-- by Florence Joyner-Griffith over 30 years ago-- wouldn't even meet the qualifying standard to get to an NCAA championships. FloJo's times are beaten by thousands of men, some of them still in high school.  The US women's soccer team, among the best in the world, practices against US high school boys teams, and frequently loses to them.

Serena Williams?

Quote
1998: Karsten Braasch vs. the Williams sisters

Quote

Another event dubbed a "Battle of the Sexes" took place during the 1998 Australian Open[56] between Karsten Braasch and the Williams sisters. Venus and Serena Williams had claimed that they could beat any male player ranked outside the world's top 200, so Braasch, then ranked 203rd, challenged them both. Braasch was described by one journalist as "a man whose training regime centered around a pack of cigarettes and more than a couple of bottles of ice cold lager".[57][56] The matches took place on court number 12 in Melbourne Park,[58] after Braasch had finished a round of golf and two shandies. He first took on Serena and after leading 5–0, beat her 6–1. Venus then walked on court and again Braasch was victorious, this time winning 6–2.[56] Braasch said afterwards, "500 and above, no chance". He added that he had played like someone ranked 600th in order to keep the game "fun"[59] and that the big difference was that men can chase down shots much easier and put spin on the ball that female players can't handle. The Williams sisters adjusted their claim to beating men outside the top 350.[56]

Maybe seeing Scarlett Johanssen toss around guys twice her size in a movie has made people unclear of how much physical disparity there is between men and women.


 -k

Remember when Kimmy was claiming this?  Admittedly, she even convinced me for a minute that the best of the best woman doesn't stand a chance against a mediocre man.

Hubbard's loss is indeed pertinent to this discussion.

Hubbard's loss is indeed pertinent to this discussion.

It's no more pertinent to the discussion than would be the performance of any other individual, winning or losing.

You either believe a person who grew up as a man, with all the benefits to performance, size and strength that male hormones provide, should be allowed to compete as a woman because he self identifies as such, or you don't.

There will always be examples that will "prove you right" or "prove you wrong".  You either think it's fair, or you don't.

Hubbard came out of retirement to compete as a woman…. He was a washed up male, but had a legit chance against females. 

Kimmy explained this very well in a previous post that you apparently didn’t bother reading.

member squiggy revisionism101: c'mon man, I've read multiple references that state Hubbard quit weightlifting in 2001... and in 2017, a full 16 years after last competing, Hubbard made a comeback after beginning to transition in 2015:

"What people don't realize is I actually stopped lifting in 2001 when I was 23 because it just became too much to bear ... just the pressure of trying to fit into a world that perhaps wasn't really set up for people like myself".

After living as a man for 35 years, Hubbard began transitioning to female through hormonal treatment around 2012

=> under current 2015 IOC guidelines, athletes who identify as female can compete in the women’s category provided their total testosterone level in serum is kept below 10 nanomoles per litre for at least 12 months, and cannot change to compete.

It's no more pertinent to the discussion than would be the performance of any other individual, winning or losing.

You either believe a person who grew up as a man, with all the benefits to performance, size and strength that male hormones provide, should be allowed to compete as a woman because he self identifies as such, or you don't.

There will always be examples that will "prove you right" or "prove you wrong".  You either think it's fair, or you don't.

TBH, my knee jerk reaction is to agree that trans women should be excluded because of the unfair advantages.  I'm pretty staunch of the bathroom issue but I waffle on the sports issue because I'm more inclined to see the naysayers' POV.  When I read that post of Kimmy's earlier about the Williams sisters losing to a #203 "whose training regime centered around a pack of cigarettes and more than a couple of bottles of ice cold lager" I was persuaded by the argument that there is an unfair advantage.

However, I am open to the other side of the argument that takes into account the person's current hormone levels.  When I see examples like Hubbard, I see the other side's POV has merit. 

Just because someone was born a man doesn't mean that they are naturally better than the best of the best woman.  I'm still in the grey camp, but I do see examples like Hubbard as serving a purpose in the trans rights argument. 

I don't think BD was wrong in bringing it up.  I also think Kimmy's name-calling and everyone jumping to attack BD afterward was unjustified.