Author Topic: Gender Culture  (Read 16721 times)

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Offline wilber

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1980 on: June 22, 2021, 03:48:31 pm »
They would if there was no more sport when they all walk out.  Take a stand….

I think it could eventually come to that.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1981 on: June 22, 2021, 04:53:01 pm »
It's becoming pretty obvious the opinions of biological women don't count for much when it comes to women's sport.

Trans people are higher on the victim hierarchy than cis women.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline wilber

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1982 on: June 23, 2021, 09:24:06 am »
Trans people are higher on the victim hierarchy than cis women.

That’s how so called inclusiveness ends up excluding people. Let’s not forget a biological woman lost a spot on a women’s Olympic team for this to happen..
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1983 on: June 23, 2021, 01:55:26 pm »
That’s how so called inclusiveness ends up excluding people. Let’s not forget a biological woman lost a spot on a women’s Olympic team for this to happen..

The woke say they're breaking down hierarchies, but they're just building new hierarchies where everyone is treated differently based on whatever ethnicity, gender, disability, or LGBT status they have.  How is this any different?  It's literally the mirror image.

Imagine the prejudicial or racist assumptions involved in listening to a speaker with extra respect just because they might be trans or black.  How about we just treat everyone like equal human beings?  Soon they'll have to cancel the Olympics because it's discriminatory to fat people and others who aren't good athletes because it hurts their feelings.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1984 on: June 24, 2021, 12:43:21 am »
@kimmy - Black Dog posted this

Maybe I was talking about this post from Black Dog which sounds to me like harassment

Yeah, Black Dog posted some deliberately misleading ****, because he's a fraud.

I posted this helpful explanation of the situation, because I didn't want people to get conned.

But you got conned anyway, so you have only yourself to blame.

Quick recap: Forstater doesn't work with Bunce. She wasn't interacting with Bunce. She's never met Bunce.  She was responding to a Financial Times article that listed Bunce among their "Top 100 Female Executives" in 2018.

 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1985 on: June 24, 2021, 01:13:46 am »
1. "Are you so privileged that you can't imagine having to work alongside someone whose values differ from your own?"  My personal point of view should be discussed on its merits, not on my personal attributes thank you.

2. You're accusing me of lying ?  That's a new one.  Of course I didn't lie.  If I misunderstood something then I apologize.  I thought Black Dog stated something about this a few pages back.

3. I don't agree.  If it's one's "personal philosophy" and you state it in a non-harrassing way then it's ok apparently.

4. What is a 'protected philosophical belief' if it doesn't protect you from being fired ?  What are you protected from ?  Speech is already allowed, and can't be stopped by the government.

5. Not any more, no.

6. Having offensive beliefs was never the question, but expressing them public was.

7. You are making this personal for some reason.  Again let me state that I don't care either way, I really don't.  I just want clarity...

2) see previous post.

3),4) The ruling made comparison to people having a right to believe that marriage is between one man and one woman.  People have a protected right to believe that only traditional marriage is real, or that homosexuality is immoral; gay employees are still entitled to a work environment free from harassment and discrimination. You seem baffled by the idea that a trans employee could somehow coexist with a coworker who believes biological sex is real, but gay people have been coexisting with religious coworkers for a long time.

In its written judgement, the Appeal Panel noted:

    Just as the legal recognition of civil partnerships does not negate the right of a person to believe that marriage should only apply to heterosexual couples, becoming the acquired gender ‘for all purposes’ within the meaning of GRA does not negate a person’s right to believe, like the claimant, that as a matter of biology a trans person is still their natal sex. Both beliefs may well be profoundly offensive and even distressing to many others, but they are beliefs that are and must be tolerated in a pluralist society.

The summary also went on to say:

    This judgment does not mean that those with gender-critical beliefs can ‘misgender’ trans persons with impunity. The Claimant, like everyone else, will continue to be subject to the prohibitions on discrimination and harassment under the EqA.


5) never did.

6) If Forstater had a public-facing job where she represented her organization to the world, I could buy that argument.  I can understand Nike dropping woman-choking sex-addict Tiger Woods as their spokesman, or HNIC dropping senile racist Don Cherry from their broadcast. I can understand McDonald's firing a cashier for calling the customers fat while he's on the job, but not for something he says during his own time. Forstater was a tax accountant with a think tank, not a public representative.   It's not like think-tank customers are thinking "oh my gosh, is that the think-tank with the TERF accountant? Let's go to some other think-tank instead."

1), 7)   I remain baffled by your inability to grasp that working with people who might not approve of you is a fact of life for many many people.

 -k
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1986 on: June 24, 2021, 02:16:57 am »
6) If Forstater had a public-facing job where she represented her organization to the world, I could buy that argument.  I can understand Nike dropping woman-choking sex-addict Tiger Woods as their spokesman, or HNIC dropping senile racist Don Cherry from their broadcast. I can understand McDonald's firing a cashier for calling the customers fat while he's on the job, but not for something he says during his own time. Forstater was a tax accountant with a think tank, not a public representative.   It's not like think-tank customers are thinking "oh my gosh, is that the think-tank with the TERF accountant? Let's go to some other think-tank instead."


The only reason I don't show my face on political forums and on twitter is for professional reasons.  Same reason I don't use Facebook for politics where I do use my real identity.  When it comes to any forum where I discuss politics, I remain anonymous.

On Facebook I draw the line at making a reference to a political party or the environment but I steer clear of anything controversial using my real name. 

I thought all smart people knew that.  Maybe Forstater is not that smart.

Offline MH

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1987 on: June 24, 2021, 04:45:46 am »
Yeah, Black Dog posted some deliberately misleading ****, because he's a fraud.

I posted this helpful explanation of the situation, because I didn't want people to get conned.

But you got conned anyway, so you have only yourself to blame.

Quick recap: Forstater doesn't work with Bunce. She wasn't interacting with Bunce. She's never met Bunce.  She was responding to a Financial Times article that listed Bunce among their "Top 100 Female Executives" in 2018.

 -k

I will take 'you got conned' instead of 'you made up facts related to the Forstater case'.

Being too trusting is better than lying.

Offline MH

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1988 on: June 24, 2021, 05:39:43 am »
1) see previous post.

2) You seem baffled by the idea that a trans employee could somehow coexist with a coworker who believes biological sex is real, but gay people have been coexisting with religious coworkers for a long time.
 
3) never did.

4) If Forstater had a public-facing job ...

5) I remain baffled by your inability to grasp that working with people who might not approve of you is a fact of life for many many people.

 -k

1) Yes, I accept that I accepted a trusted poster's facts without checking them and that it's possible I was duped.  Much better than "making up facts", ie. lying which you surprisingly accused me of.  I would have thought you trust my intellectual honesty more than that.

2) Not baffled at all.  I don't know why you think that.  I can see why you would agree with that argument, absolutely.  See 5) below

3) Employers could very much fire you for your opinions in the past, yes.   http://uniter.ca/view/the-crowe-affair

4) Yes this is a strong point. 

5) Again - why do you think I'm "baffled" ?  Just because I see why people agree with that argument, has nothing to do with me.  I still think you believe I'm emotionally invested in this.  My statement: "Again let me state that I don't care either way, I really don't.  I just want clarity..."
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1989 on: July 11, 2021, 02:59:47 am »
1) Yes, I accept that I accepted a trusted poster's facts without checking them and that it's possible I was duped.  Much better than "making up facts", ie. lying which you surprisingly accused me of.  I would have thought you trust my intellectual honesty more than that.

2) Not baffled at all.  I don't know why you think that.  I can see why you would agree with that argument, absolutely.  See 5) below

3) Employers could very much fire you for your opinions in the past, yes.   http://uniter.ca/view/the-crowe-affair

4) Yes this is a strong point. 

5) Again - why do you think I'm "baffled" ?  Just because I see why people agree with that argument, has nothing to do with me.  I still think you believe I'm emotionally invested in this.  My statement: "Again let me state that I don't care either way, I really don't.  I just want clarity..."


1) After I'd gone to the trouble of explaining that the guy wasn't her co-worker and that she wasn't even interacting with him, I was quite irked that you continued on with that narrative.

3)  Your article says that Crowe's union investigated and found the firing was unjust.

2, 5)  It seems like you are baffled because all your posts regarding the Forstater ruling seem to indicate that you feel that some unresolvable, untenable situation has been created.  But it just isn't very complicated.

 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1990 on: July 11, 2021, 03:16:09 am »
We might soon have our own Forstater type situation here in Canada, as the BC College of Nurses is investigating Vancouver nurse Amy Eileen Hamm for thought-crimes.  Hamm was mentioned earlier in this thread after she was one of the sponsors of the "I (heart) JK Rowling" billboard that briefly appeared in Vancouver last year.  Hamm also has a podcast and is one of the founders of a gender-critical organization.  Hamm has obtained representation from the Justice Center for Constitutional Freedoms, the same religious-conservative law group that defended the aestheticians who refused to wax Jessica Yaniv's nut-sack.

https://www.jccf.ca/nurse-being-investigated-by-college-of-nurses-for-her-gender-critical-views/

The JK Rowling billboard is among the "issues" the College of Nurses is investigating. They are apparently also "concerned" about stuff she wrote on Twitter and in articles. None of the complaints came from any patients Hamm has interacted with, and none involve her on the job performance. The complaints are from anonymous activists and involve her expressing her views in her spare time.

I would expect that Hamm will be completely vindicated. However, even if she is vindicated, this is yet another instance where the process is the punishment.

 -k
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1991 on: July 11, 2021, 07:40:12 pm »
We might soon have our own Forstater type situation here in Canada, as the BC College of Nurses is investigating Vancouver nurse Amy Eileen Hamm for thought-crimes.  Hamm was mentioned earlier in this thread after she was one of the sponsors of the "I (heart) JK Rowling" billboard that briefly appeared in Vancouver last year.  Hamm also has a podcast and is one of the founders of a gender-critical organization.  Hamm has obtained representation from the Justice Center for Constitutional Freedoms, the same religious-conservative law group that defended the aestheticians who refused to wax Jessica Yaniv's nut-sack.

https://www.jccf.ca/nurse-being-investigated-by-college-of-nurses-for-her-gender-critical-views/

The JK Rowling billboard is among the "issues" the College of Nurses is investigating. They are apparently also "concerned" about stuff she wrote on Twitter and in articles. None of the complaints came from any patients Hamm has interacted with, and none involve her on the job performance. The complaints are from anonymous activists and involve her expressing her views in her spare time.

I would expect that Hamm will be completely vindicated. However, even if she is vindicated, this is yet another instance where the process is the punishment.

 -k

WTF does any of that have to do with her qualifications as a nurse?  Is there some policy at the College of Nurses saying all nurses are required to believe that sex and gender are not separate categories?  Any academic or feminist/LGBT literature i've ever read says they are separate.  But maybe the goalposts have shifted and activists are again trying to redefine established terms to fit their worldview.  The courts are the only thing that can protect science and rationality from some of these bullying activists.

The article you quoted seems surprisingly rational, even though I only read half of it:

"VANCOUVER: The Justice Centre is defending Amy Hamm, a Vancouver-area nurse, in an investigation by the BC College of Nurses and Midwives (BCCNM), after complaints were filed against her because of her “gender critical” views and her sponsorship of an advertising billboard expressing support for famed children’s author, J.K. Rowling. Ms. Hamm, a single mother of young children, is facing calls for her to be permanently removed from her career in nursing for expressing her opinion on an important issue currently being debated in the public square.

Gender critical feminists typically profess that transgender people have the right to live their lives with dignity and without harassment, but that identification as trans does not equate to literally changing sex. Conflating sex (a biological classification) with self-identified gender (a social construct) poses a risk to women’s sex-based rights, particularly in settings where natal women have an expectation of same-sex privacy and protection, such as women’s prisons, changerooms, and **** shelters. Women’s sports are another area where the implications of the biology-versus-gender debate have real impact, gender critics note.
"
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Offline wilber

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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1993 on: July 19, 2021, 11:23:18 am »
WTF does any of that have to do with her qualifications as a nurse?  Is there some policy at the College of Nurses saying all nurses are required to believe that sex and gender are not separate categories?  Any academic or feminist/LGBT literature i've ever read says they are separate.  But maybe the goalposts have shifted and activists are again trying to redefine established terms to fit their worldview.  The courts are the only thing that can protect science and rationality from some of these bullying activists.

The article you quoted seems surprisingly rational, even though I only read half of it:

"VANCOUVER: The Justice Centre is defending Amy Hamm, a Vancouver-area nurse, in an investigation by the BC College of Nurses and Midwives (BCCNM), after complaints were filed against her because of her “gender critical” views and her sponsorship of an advertising billboard expressing support for famed children’s author, J.K. Rowling. Ms. Hamm, a single mother of young children, is facing calls for her to be permanently removed from her career in nursing for expressing her opinion on an important issue currently being debated in the public square.

Gender critical feminists typically profess that transgender people have the right to live their lives with dignity and without harassment, but that identification as trans does not equate to literally changing sex. Conflating sex (a biological classification) with self-identified gender (a social construct) poses a risk to women’s sex-based rights, particularly in settings where natal women have an expectation of same-sex privacy and protection, such as women’s prisons, changerooms, and **** shelters. Women’s sports are another area where the implications of the biology-versus-gender debate have real impact, gender critics note.
"

FYI the Justice Centre is a loony far right group whose founder recently had to step down after it came out that he hired a P.I to tail the Manitoba Court of Queen’s Bench Chief Justice.



Offline Black Dog

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1994 on: July 19, 2021, 11:29:16 am »
Trans people are such a threat that gender critical folks have to actually make up incidents of trans people exposing themselves in changerooms. That hoax led to a bunch of Proud Boys staging a protest to harrass the spa.

I wonder how many of the other incidents we've heard of it this thread were hoaxes.

Meanwhile, over on TERF island, a popular gender critical columnist has put out a new book in which she launders anti-semitic conspiracy theories.

But hey, the enemy of my enemy etc...

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