Author Topic: Gender Culture  (Read 12938 times)

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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1650 on: March 05, 2021, 02:25:55 pm »
I didn't say it was but the transition towards surgery can certainly start before adulthood. What an underage kid is seems to be contingent on the issue.  Voting, driving, going to war, changing your sex...it's like an alphabet soup.

Yes gender dysphoria can hit before puberty. What's wrong with addressing that?

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The court ruling in the article I linked to certainly supports a trend towards rights that allow kids to begin the process of become transgendered.  I don't see a need for rights for transgendered adults beyond that which human beings already enjoy.

So what? The teen in the article you linked to had been experiencing gender dysphoria from a young age and had engaged in self-harm and suicidal behaviours. Lots do: if you don't let them pursue treatment (which could include puberty blockers or in some cases hormone treatments conducted under the guidance of medial professionals) you'll see a lot of dead kids..

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As I said making these non-issues into BIG issues spill over into kid's domains and only contributes to their natural confusion.

Or awareness of trans issues and the ability to seek treatment for dysphoria helps kids make sense of their natural confusion.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1651 on: March 05, 2021, 02:33:52 pm »
Yes gender dysphoria can hit before puberty. What's wrong with addressing that?

I don;t think there's anything wrong with addressing it.  I think the controversy is around the use of hormones and surgery.  Let's face it, it is controversial to inject a child with hormones to change their biology (grow breasts or facial hair etc).  I think it's good to have a healthy debate on that, without denying that children can have gender dysphoria and be harmed by the social and psychological repercussions.

I've known many people in the LGBT community, and the ones who are trans seem to have a lot of mental health issues in general, which is backed by the suicide stats for trans people.  It's really sad and we should, above all else, feel great compassion and empathy towards these people.  I couldn't imagine dealing with these confusing identity issues.  I had a hard enough time as a teen and i don't have any of these issues to deal with.
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1652 on: March 05, 2021, 02:38:12 pm »
I don;t think there's anything wrong with addressing it.  I think the controversy is around the use of hormones and surgery.
What does it matter to you though? Let people navigate their personal health issues with their medical professionals who are highly educated on the subject. When, why, and how someone transitions really has no effect on your life whatsoever.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1653 on: March 05, 2021, 05:00:32 pm »
I don;t think there's anything wrong with addressing it.  I think the controversy is around the use of hormones and surgery.  Let's face it, it is controversial to inject a child with hormones to change their biology (grow breasts or facial hair etc).  I think it's good to have a healthy debate on that, without denying that children can have gender dysphoria and be harmed by the social and psychological repercussions.

Sure and we're seeing that debate play out now. I have zero doubt that there are cases where hormones or puberty blockers are appropriate interventions for prepubescent kids experiencing gender dysphoria. I also have zero doubt there are cases where they are not and these all should be determined by medical professionals. Banning such interventions outright (as the UK recently did with puberty blockers, which are a temporary and reversible) means condemning members of the former category to a miserable existence at the worst possible time in their lives.

Offline eyeball

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1654 on: March 06, 2021, 12:46:11 am »
Yes gender dysphoria can hit before puberty. What's wrong with addressing that?
Nothing, if its a life or death necessity, by all means address that more aggressively.  What's wrong with continuing to also address it as the fairly simple growing pain it is?   

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So what? The teen in the article you linked to had been experiencing gender dysphoria from a young age and had engaged in self-harm and suicidal behaviours. Lots do: if you don't let them pursue treatment (which could include puberty blockers or in some cases hormone treatments conducted under the guidance of medial professionals) you'll see a lot of dead kids..
You don't know that we'll see lots of dead kids. That's fear mongering. As for suicidal intervention psychiatric help seems more focused and likely to prevent suicides than hormone therapy, changes to one's physique or making it a constitutional issue. 

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Or awareness of trans issues and the ability to seek treatment for dysphoria helps kids make sense of their natural confusion.
Again, trans issues are issues an in the domain of adults who have made the transition to a different gender. It seems like you're trying to address the issue of confused kids by conflating their growing pains with the social and political consequences that transitioned grown adults have to deal with like bathrooms, sports and waxing.  These have **** all to do with growing pains of kids, they're the politics of adults.

I think the adult desire/push whatever you want to call it to drag gender dysphoria of confused kids into it is perhaps explained by a need to acquire allies in a admittedly hostile and all to often deliberately insensitive world.  Weaponizing kids is not the answer.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2021, 12:53:04 am by eyeball »

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1655 on: March 06, 2021, 02:19:17 am »
What does it matter to you though? Let people navigate their personal health issues with their medical professionals who are highly educated on the subject. When, why, and how someone transitions really has no effect on your life whatsoever.

i've framed my discussion using the example of if this was child what would I do?  I'll never really know unless it happened, I don't know how these people feel.

On the other hand, people are injecting children with hormones.  If people were injecting kids with hormones that made gay children turn straight, suddenly we would all care and I'm sure you would too.  Nobody says gay conversion therapy is between the parent, child, and psychologist.  So there's no harm in discussing the implications of what procedures doctors are allowed to perform on children.  I don't care at all what an adult wants to do with themselves, but children are a vulnerable group so society and our laws need to decide what is allowable and healthy, or what is abuse etc.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2021, 02:28:10 am by Gorgeous Graham »
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1656 on: March 06, 2021, 01:17:07 pm »
Nothing, if its a life or death necessity, by all means address that more aggressively. What's wrong with continuing to also address it as the fairly simple growing pain it is?    

How do you know that's all it is if there aren't reseources abvailable?

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You don't know that we'll see lots of dead kids. That's fear mongering.

Nope.


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As for suicidal intervention psychiatric help seems more focused and likely to prevent suicides than hormone therapy, 

Evidence?

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Changes to one's physique or making it a constitutional issue.

lol what

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Again, trans issues are issues an in the domain of adults who have made the transition to a different gender. It seems like you're trying to address the issue of confused kids by conflating their growing pains with the social and political consequences that transitioned grown adults have to deal with like bathrooms, sports and waxing.  These have **** all to do with growing pains of kids, they're the politics of adults.

Almost every trans adult was a trans kid at some point.

And let's be real: you don't have to make a surgical transition to alter your gender identity and be impacted by the issues you claim only effect transitioned adults.

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I think the adult desire/push whatever you want to call it to drag gender dysphoria of confused kids into it is perhaps explained by a need to acquire allies in a admittedly hostile and all to often deliberately insensitive world.  Weaponizing kids is not the answer.

You obviously don't think gender dysphoria is a real issue for youth and that it's juts a phase, so I'm not sure there's any point having a conversation with you on this.
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Offline eyeball

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1657 on: March 07, 2021, 11:06:34 am »
You obviously don't think gender dysphoria is a real issue for youth and that it's juts a phase, so I'm not sure there's any point having a conversation with you on this.
I think its real enough but I also have to wonder how much of it is more like a phase and a fad.  The world we live in appears to be going thru a period of growing social diversity and sexual experimentation and as is also typical these days there are people filled with solutions eagerly looking for problems and to guide people.

Just wait until genetic modification and cybernetics take off and every modified or enhanced human or group thereof develop suites of right's peculiar to them. We haven't seen anything yet.  There'll probably even be a point at which unenhanced un-transitioned people will need special rights.  Just don't call them normal.

As for increasing suicide rates, I'm really not surprised given how tightly wound up human societies are becoming.  Self-destructive behaviour has certainly been noted in experiments on what can happen when the stress of overpopulation occurs.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2021, 11:14:07 am by eyeball »

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1658 on: March 07, 2021, 01:16:15 pm »
I think its real enough but I also have to wonder how much of it is more like a phase and a fad.  The world we live in appears to be going thru a period of growing social diversity and sexual experimentation and as is also typical these days there are people filled with solutions eagerly looking for problems and to guide people.

Or the slightly greater social acceptance and awareness means more people understand what they're going through and are willing to identify as such. And even if it is a phase, that's why we should have mental health services so kids can work through it.

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As for increasing suicide rates, I'm really not surprised given how tightly wound up human societies are becoming.  Self-destructive behaviour has certainly been noted in experiments on what can happen when the stress of overpopulation occurs.[/quoute]

huh?

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1659 on: March 09, 2021, 10:53:43 pm »
Almost every trans adult was a trans kid at some point.

You don't know that.  Maybe you could make such a claim back in a time when transition was a last resort for people with gender dysphoria, but that isn't the case anymore.  As gender experimentation becomes a matter of self-exploration rather than clinical dysphoria, those who view clinical dysphoria as a necessary characteristic of transgender people have become a hated minority called "truscum" by other trans people.  The truscum are viewed as gatekeepers who are "invalidating the existence of other trans people".   Transition and gender experimentation isn't just for kids with clinically diagnosed dysphoria anymore. Gender experimentation is for everybody! In recent years we have been inundated with adults "becoming their authentic selves".

And yet we have this motte-and-bailey type situation where protecting children with gender dysphoria is always the castle to which the gender-people retreat when faced with pushback.

Sure and we're seeing that debate play out now. I have zero doubt that there are cases where hormones or puberty blockers are appropriate interventions for prepubescent kids experiencing gender dysphoria. I also have zero doubt there are cases where they are not and these all should be determined by medical professionals. Banning such interventions outright (as the UK recently did with puberty blockers, which are a temporary and reversible) means condemning members of the former category to a miserable existence at the worst possible time in their lives.

How temporary and reversible puberty blockers actually are is a matter of some debate.  The degree to which they impact development into adulthood isn't fully known, and there are concerns regarding the impact of this treatment on brain development and bone development.  Puberty blockers are FDA Approved... as treatment for prostate cancer.  Using them as a treatment for gender dysphoria is an "off-label" use, and the effects of doing this haven't been studied well enough to support the claim that they're safe, temporary, or reversible.  Proponents claim they're like a magic pause button for puberty and that once the treatment is ended your body will pick up where it left off without missing a beat-- that's not proven.

Also not proven is that medical intervention is more effective than psychiatric therapy in helping young people with gender dysphoria.

Regarding the UK ruling, the Keira Bell case, a key component of that is that adolescents aren't capable of providing what is considered informed consent.

The court case also cast a light on the UK's Tavistock Gender Clinic and the quality of guidance provided by the professionals there. And the Bell case wasn't the first time Tavistock has been found wanting. They've seen whistleblowers, massive turnover of doctors due to conflicts and ethical concerns over "fast tracking" adolescents into medical transition, and one point the whole board of directors was sacked. It's been called a national scandal.

Canada and the US don't even have a Tavistock. Here it's a Wild West.

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Offline eyeball

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1660 on: March 09, 2021, 11:23:21 pm »
huh?
I think I meant the stress that contributes to suicide could be due to an individual feeling like they're boxed in and trapped. I've lived in the boonies most of my life but the world has never felt more crowded. Maybe that's just me.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2021, 11:26:59 pm by eyeball »

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1661 on: March 10, 2021, 10:35:37 am »
You don't know that.  Maybe you could make such a claim back in a time when transition was a last resort for people with gender dysphoria, but that isn't the case anymore.  As gender experimentation becomes a matter of self-exploration rather than clinical dysphoria, those who view clinical dysphoria as a necessary characteristic of transgender people have become a hated minority called "truscum" by other trans people.  The truscum are viewed as gatekeepers who are "invalidating the existence of other trans people".   Transition and gender experimentation isn't just for kids with clinically diagnosed dysphoria anymore. Gender experimentation is for everybody! In recent years we have been inundated with adults "becoming their authentic selves".

And yet we have this motte-and-bailey type situation where protecting children with gender dysphoria is always the castle to which the gender-people retreat when faced with pushback.

Once again you're doing that thing where you read some niche weirdos on social media and project that on the entire community in the real world without evidence that its actually, like, a thing.

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How temporary and reversible puberty blockers actually are is a matter of some debate.  The degree to which they impact development into adulthood isn't fully known, and there are concerns regarding the impact of this treatment on brain development and bone development.  Puberty blockers are FDA Approved... as treatment for prostate cancer.  Using them as a treatment for gender dysphoria is an "off-label" use, and the effects of doing this haven't been studied well enough to support the claim that they're safe, temporary, or reversible.  Proponents claim they're like a magic pause button for puberty and that once the treatment is ended your body will pick up where it left off without missing a beat-- that's not proven.

Also not proven is that medical intervention is more effective than psychiatric therapy in helping young people with gender dysphoria.

Regarding the UK ruling, the Keira Bell case, a key component of that is that adolescents aren't capable of providing what is considered informed consent.

The court case also cast a light on the UK's Tavistock Gender Clinic and the quality of guidance provided by the professionals there. And the Bell case wasn't the first time Tavistock has been found wanting. They've seen whistleblowers, massive turnover of doctors due to conflicts and ethical concerns over "fast tracking" adolescents into medical transition, and one point the whole board of directors was sacked. It's been called a national scandal.

Canada and the US don't even have a Tavistock. Here it's a Wild West.

I'm really not sure what you're arguing here. If you are simply saying there should be more oversight, more options and more information on offer, then that's a no-brainer. If you're saying that access to medical transition should be barred to anyone under the age of 18, I can't agree with that at all.