Author Topic: Gender Culture  (Read 56137 times)

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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1425 on: September 02, 2020, 08:29:33 pm »
Possibly, but I doubt you can draw a direct line between things published by The Rebel and Vietnamese salon workers filing complaints.

I can't recall any of The Rebel's reporting on this case because I haven't read The Rebel in a very long time. I have, on the other hand, followed The Post Millennial's coverage of the Yaniv story.   As The Post Millennial is one of the only media sources in Canada willing to give column space to gender-critical feminists, I'm willing to give them some page views.

It wasn't complaints from salon workers I was referring to.  As far as I'm aware no salon workers, Vietnamese or otherwise, have ever filed a complaint against Yaniv.    The complaints against Yaniv I'm referring to came from one or more girls who were targeted by Yaniv for sexual exploitation.  The one complaint we know of for sure came from a young woman named Jessica Rumpel, who contacted Post Millennial contributor Anna Slatz to share her story, which was corroborated by voluminous evidence in the form of text messages and audio messages from Yaniv.  After interacting with Slatz, Rumpel made an official complaint to Cybertip.ca, Canada's online sexual exploitation tip line. There are more young women who have had encounters with Yaniv.  Morgane Oger, BC's reputable trans activist, was able to personally connect with some of Yaniv's victims, and after interacting with them Oger contacted the RCMP personally.  Yaniv's "activism" was already known and supported by Oger; the unveiling of Yaniv's creepy history caused Oger to withdraw from and denounce Yaniv.

Prior to attempting to shake down immigrant beauticians who wouldn't handle her Lady-Testicles, Yaniv was already internet infamous. One of Yaniv's attempts to manipulate an underaged girl involved recruiting them as a product reviewer for Yaniv's website.  Yaniv, using a female alias, contacted a teenager who had posted some reviews on a message board, and offered her a writing job. The first thing Yaniv wanted the 16 year old to review for the website? Vibrators! Yaniv mailed a 16 year old girl a selection of vibrators to use, and write about it afterwards.  Another way in which Yaniv attempted to connect with adolescent girls was using his (he was still Jonathan at the time) position as moderator of a fan message board for a pop-music group called Cimorelli, which had a fanbase that skewed young and female. And there is more. The internet never forgets, and there is a lot more of Yaniv's antics archived for posterity, featuring Yaniv's attempts at bonding with tween girls over menstrual products, Yaniv's disappointment that he doesn't see enough tit and vag when he hangs out in the womens' locker room, and so on.

Anyway. Can we draw a line between coverage of Yaniv's shenanigans and positive action? Yes, we can. The first line connects from Post Millennial's coverage to Jessica Rumpel's cybertip.ca complaint.  The second connects from negative publicity of Yaniv to Oger's disavowal of Yaniv and Oger's attempts to connect with Yaniv's victims.

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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1426 on: September 02, 2020, 08:47:25 pm »
Possibly.  But rather than project some negative effect, let's maybe acknowledge the perpetual tinder box that is identity politics and endeavour to have a mature conversation about the topic.

"needed to be discussed" - well, I don't think I can advocate for obliterating all discussion.  But what is the audience for a discussion of trans rights, if it's discussed by 'The Rebel' ?  Is the discussion in the best public interest in all cases, or can we request that they maybe raise the bar in terms of how it's examined ?  If they don't want to raise the bar, then - yes - maybe they shouldn't discuss it.


How could this topic not be worth discussing?  Yaniv's complaints had already cost several beauticians their livelihood. This was a novel case testing a new area of law.  The outcome of this case had the potential to impact beauticians all over BC and perhaps everywhere else in Canada.   And leaving aside the questions of trans rights vs women's rights and trans rights vs religious freedom, there's also the question of the fairness of the whole HRC process.

I think it's preposterous to propose that this case shouldn't have seen media coverage.  I think Brown's claim, and yours, is ridiculous.

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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1427 on: September 02, 2020, 08:50:46 pm »
I don't think that's true that he laughs off all such issues, but I'm open to calling Brown out if that is the case.

At the start of his segment he rattled off a list of titles of Quillette articles referencing those issues, and laughed it all off as fearmongering. Clearly he's saying those issues don't have merit. If he thought those issues had merit he wouldn't be mocking Quillette for posting articles about them.  That's blindingly obvious.

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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1428 on: September 02, 2020, 09:00:23 pm »
Lots of people speak their minds on this issue and they don't have her kind of money.  Furthermore, while I don't agree with the way the general public was brought into the discussion they are clearly being counted on as an asset in the push back.

Women who aren't JK Rowling find themselves losing their jobs, banned from Twitter, kicked out of their social group, deplatformed,  and threatened with violence.   Daniel Radcliffe and Emma Watson denounced the woman who made them famous, for woke-people head pats; Evanna Lynch-- the girl who played Luna Lovegood in the movies-- was run off of Twitter for urging empathy for Rowling.

They've been trying to threaten and deplatform Rowling herself as well, of course, only to find that she's simply too big.

In the mainstream media even Rowling herself is not getting a fair shake:  media outlets refer to "Rowling's transphobic comments" without any mention of what she actually said. Does "transphobic comments" seem like a fair description for her essay? You can read it yourself and make up your own mind:

https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/


What things ?  The fact that she brought a lawsuit at all seems to be a sign of insanity to some people.  And I don't think it's a given that sanity will prevail but ... maybe we should complain about such things after the rulings rather than before.

What things?  A male rapist being put in a women's prison in the UK after "discovering" that he's actually a woman?  That it's now controversial, in 2020, for a lesbian to say that she doesn't like dick?  Sanity left town a long time ago on this topic. We have gone a long way past "we just need a place to pee."

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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1429 on: September 03, 2020, 04:01:29 pm »
4 posts at a time ?  Are you trying to flood me out here ?

It wasn't complaints from salon workers I was referring to.  As far as I'm aware no salon workers, Vietnamese or otherwise, have ever filed a complaint against Yaniv.    The complaints against Yaniv I'm referring to came from one or more girls who were targeted by Yaniv for sexual exploitation.  The one complaint we know of for sure came from a young woman named Jessica Rumpel, who contacted Post Millennial contributor Anna Slatz to share her story, which was corroborated by voluminous evidence in the form of text messages and audio messages from Yaniv.  After interacting with Slatz, Rumpel made an official complaint to Cybertip.ca, Canada's online sexual exploitation tip line. There are more young women who have had encounters with Yaniv.  Morgane Oger, BC's reputable trans activist, was able to personally connect with some of Yaniv's victims, and after interacting with them Oger contacted the RCMP personally.  Yaniv's "activism" was already known and supported by Oger; the unveiling of Yaniv's creepy history caused Oger to withdraw from and denounce Yaniv.

Prior to attempting to shake down immigrant beauticians who wouldn't handle her Lady-Testicles, Yaniv was already internet infamous. One of Yaniv's attempts to manipulate an underaged girl involved recruiting them as a product reviewer for Yaniv's website.  Yaniv, using a female alias, contacted a teenager who had posted some reviews on a message board, and offered her a writing job. The first thing Yaniv wanted the 16 year old to review for the website? Vibrators! Yaniv mailed a 16 year old girl a selection of vibrators to use, and write about it afterwards.  Another way in which Yaniv attempted to connect with adolescent girls was using his (he was still Jonathan at the time) position as moderator of a fan message board for a pop-music group called Cimorelli, which had a fanbase that skewed young and female. And there is more. The internet never forgets, and there is a lot more of Yaniv's antics archived for posterity, featuring Yaniv's attempts at bonding with tween girls over menstrual products, Yaniv's disappointment that he doesn't see enough tit and vag when he hangs out in the womens' locker room, and so on.

Anyway. Can we draw a line between coverage of Yaniv's shenanigans and positive action? Yes, we can. The first line connects from Post Millennial's coverage to Jessica Rumpel's cybertip.ca complaint.  The second connects from negative publicity of Yaniv to Oger's disavowal of Yaniv and Oger's attempts to connect with Yaniv's victims.
 

I... suppose so.  But is that why coverage of this case was necessary ?  To expose Yaniv as a predator and bad actor ?  I don't think that's what I saw in the coverage.  If the coverage was "look at this bad person !  and they are now abusing the HRC system" that's far different than "look what happens when we enshrine transgender rights ! freaks like this surface in our midst !"

My issue (and I believe Brown and Rogan's) was about the circusifying of rights questions by the right-wing mudslingers.

 
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How could this topic not be worth discussing?  Yaniv's complaints had already cost several beauticians their livelihood. This was a novel case testing a new area of law.  The outcome of this case had the potential to impact beauticians all over BC and perhaps everywhere else in Canada.   And leaving aside the questions of trans rights vs women's rights and trans rights vs religious freedom, there's also the question of the fairness of the whole HRC process.
 

Are you reading my comments, to which you are responding voluminously ?  This:
 "I don't think I can advocate for obliterating all discussion."

I will reiterate the point I made just above in this very post.

 
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I think it's preposterous to propose that this case shouldn't have seen media coverage.  I think Brown's claim, and yours, is ridiculous.

I will reiterate the point I made just above in this very post.

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At the start of his segment he rattled off a list of titles of Quillette articles referencing those issues, and laughed it all off as fearmongering. Clearly he's saying those issues don't have merit. If he thought those issues had merit he wouldn't be mocking Quillette for posting articles about them.  That's blindingly obvious.

I will reiterate the point I made just above in this very post.

 
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What things?  A male rapist being put in a women's prison in the UK after "discovering" that he's actually a woman?  That it's now controversial, in 2020, for a lesbian to say that she doesn't like dick?  Sanity left town a long time ago on this topic. We have gone a long way past "we just need a place to pee."

Ok...  Well I *did* think the side of sanity would likely prevail.  And it did.  But it doesn't always.  Mentally ill people are let out when they shouldn't.  The system fails.  Does that mean that you should shut up ?  No.  Does it mean that the system is terrible ?  Also, no.

In terms of coverage, it still means that these things should be covered as normal questions of rights.  That's all.  Heavy personalization and circusifying isn't helpful.



 
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Women who aren't JK Rowling find themselves losing their jobs, banned from Twitter, kicked out of their social group, deplatformed,  and threatened with violence.   Daniel Radcliffe and Emma Watson denounced the woman who made them famous, for woke-people head pats; Evanna Lynch-- the girl who played Luna Lovegood in the movies-- was run off of Twitter for urging empathy for Rowling.

For what though ?  For saying trans women are really men ?  Did they all say the same things ?Aren't you putting all of these people in the same box now ?

 
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You can read it yourself and make up your own mind:

https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/
 

Ok.  I'll read it.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1430 on: September 03, 2020, 06:34:12 pm »
Wow.  3600+ words..  :P

She makes some great points, actually but also she seems to think that the amount of abuse that happens on Twitter is germane to the discussion, which it isn't.  Twitter is a **** show.

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Offline wilber

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1431 on: September 03, 2020, 07:06:12 pm »
Wow.  3600+ words..  :P

She makes some great points, actually but also she seems to think that the amount of abuse that happens on Twitter is germane to the discussion, which it isn't.  Twitter is a **** show.


Twitter is very relevant to any discussion, Trump has used it masterfully.
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1432 on: September 04, 2020, 02:47:51 am »
Wow.  3600+ words..  :P

She makes some great points, actually but also she seems to think that the amount of abuse that happens on Twitter is germane to the discussion, which it isn't.  Twitter is a **** show.

It is though.  I liked that post of Rowling where she extended her support for trans community but let known that she sees trans women differently than cis women... but I quickly tried to drown my like by liking a bunch more stuff and I've never voiced my agreement with her on twitter because I don't want to deal with the abuse of being called a transphobe.

I admire her conviction given her platform because I bet there are lot of people who, like me, are too afraid to agree publicly. 

If we are really the same, why even bother with the 'trans'-woman qualifier? 
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Offline wilber

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1433 on: September 04, 2020, 09:35:50 am »
That’s a problem with social media in general, it is used as a bully pulpit to crush any non complying thought.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1434 on: September 04, 2020, 07:13:00 pm »
4 posts at a time ?  Are you trying to flood me out here ?

Sorry, I wasn't trying to waldo you.  I wrote the first post while I was waiting for Linz to get showered.  And then the second post because she had to do her hair.  Then the third post while I was waiting for her to pick out her outfit. Then another post because she had to do her makeup. Then I went and did other stuff because she had to choose a different outfit and redo her hair and makeup.   I didn't intend for it to come off like a stampede, it just kind of turned out that way.

I... suppose so.  But is that why coverage of this case was necessary ?  To expose Yaniv as a predator and bad actor ? 

I think the case needed to be covered regardless of whether the plaintiff was a well-meaning saint or a conniving predator.  Most of the international articles surrounding this case didn't refer to Yaniv's predatory history at all; the basics of the case (essentially, "trans-woman wants beauticians to be legally compelled to handle her male genitals") were in their own right sufficient to bring attention to the case.  Even if Yaniv had a squeaky-clean history, the essentials of the case were still upsetting to many people.

I don't think that's what I saw in the coverage.  If the coverage was "look at this bad person !  and they are now abusing the HRC system" that's far different than "look what happens when we enshrine transgender rights ! freaks like this surface in our midst !"

My issue (and I believe Brown and Rogan's) was about the circusifying of rights questions by the right-wing mudslingers.

So as I mentioned before, I think the mainstream news outlets were pretty restrained in what they reported about Yaniv.  And as I said above, I think that the basis of the complaint itself was sufficient to draw attention and raise concern about the outcome of the case. This was unavoidably controversial.


Publicity concerning Yaniv's behavior resulted in more victims coming forward, as already discussed.
I think declining to report on Yaniv's history of predatory behavior gave readers an inaccurate picture of Yaniv's so-called activism.
I think that Yaniv's history of predatory behavior gives insight into possible motivation for why he targeted these women.
The  aestheticians claimed in their defense that they were concerned that having Yaniv in their homes was unsafe; his predatory history is certainly relevant to that defense.

Also, whenever women raise safety in regard to trans people in women's spaces, trans people and their allies always claim that concerns are unfounded, that it's a myth, that it never happens. But that isn't true, we can point at Yaniv as an example, and there are others as well.  Often crimes committed by trans-women are reported as crimes commited by women. Headline says "Woman arrested in child p0rn bust", and when you look at the mug-shot it's a stubble-faced individual with long hair. "That never happens" is a false narrative, and declining to report on it gives trans allies a pass to keep making that false claim.  Nobody is claiming that all transgender individuals are criminal, but pretending that none of them pose a threat to women is dishonest and dangerous.



For what though ?  For saying trans women are really men ?  Did they all say the same things ?Aren't you putting all of these people in the same box now ?

For any number of thought-crimes. Some big, some small. It's not all the same box, but there's a general theme: if you catch the ire of the trans-allies mob, you're going to face consequences.

Meghan Murphy of course has been banned from Twitter and protested everywhere she attempts to speak. When she spoke at the Toronto Public Library in fall 2019, the CBC Radio's Carol Off had Toronto's head librarian Vickery Bowles on her show for a public struggle-session, during which Off likened Bowles' decision to allow Murphy to speak at the library to allowing Neo Nazis to speak at the library. And if you saw the video of the night of the speech, you saw SJW types yelling at attendees, inviting them to kill themselves or telling them to "bleed out"... some of them even had a little mock-up guillotine for beheading TERFs.

I guilted you into watching a Meghan Murphy talk; while you said you found it terribly boring, I don't think you saw anything during the talk that warrants comparison to Nazis.  After Murphy's talk, Toronto's mayor and some of the city councillors vowed to take action to stop Murphy from speaking there again.  Late in 2019, Toronto trans-woman and activist Julie Berman was murdered.  Toronto's SJW community was quick to blame Murphy. "Thanks Meghan Murphy!" "This is what happens when you let TERFs speak in your city!"   Who killed Berman? Was it an angry feminist moved to violence by Murphy's talk?  As it turns out, it was a non-binary pen!s-person who was a member of Toronto's LGBT2SQIA+ community. Not a TERF, not somebody who listened to Murphy.

Arielle Scarcella was a popular lesbian Youtube video personality. Now she's "Arielle TERFcella" and persona-non-grata in LGBT circles, for the terrible crime of telling trans activists to stop trying to bully lesbians into dating pen!s-people.

The JK Rowling affair is ongoing, and we can all watch the ongoing witch-hunt.    But it's not just about public figures and public speaking events and social media personalities. It's little things that won't make the newspapers.

BC_Cheque being scared to hit the "like" button on the wrong Tweet is one tiny example. Don't let people know you read the wrong thing! You could get in trouble.

One I saw recently was from a yoga forum on Reddit. A woman was quitting her yoga studio and was asking for suggestions for self-study. Asked why she was quitting, she explained that her studio had recently welcomed a new trans woman, and while she had initially been supportive, she found herself showering with that person one day and found them staring at her with a raging erect!on... she didn't feel safe and didn't think she could ever go back there. Someone told her "You should complain! That's not acceptable behavior, trans or not."  She said "If I complain people will say I'm transphobic."

I don't follow yoga forums, but that one was spotted by TERFs and noted on the Gender Critical Feminists community on Reddit. Which has now been erased, because Reddit decided that gender-critical feminism is "hateful".  Reddit's GC had been a place for women to share similar stories... a teenage lesbian who had been banned from her school's LGBT after she said no to dating a "trans girl" and was deemed a transphobe. A woman who's PCOS group had been ruined by a trans woman who didn't actually have ovaries but joined the group so that they could police everyone's language. A woman whose trans acquaintance grabs her boobs and says "oh, it's just us girls here!" when she objects. Women sharing experiences like this is too "hateful" to be allowed at Reddit. That's gone now.


It's been said (and I've said it here before) that the purpose of a witch-hunt isn't to kill one witch, it's to scare everyone else into compliance.


Wow.  3600+ words..  :P

She makes some great points, actually

I thought that it was a thoughtful essay that deserves more consideration than being dismissed as "Rowling's transphobic comments".  And yet, that's how it has been depicted (just as Murphy's talks have been depicted as transphobic hate speech).   Last week Rowling Fed-Exed her RFK Foundation "Glimmer of Hope" award back to the RFK Foundation after their director denounced her "transphobic comments" in an open letter that didn't address one iota of what Rowling wrote.

but also she seems to think that the amount of abuse that happens on Twitter is germane to the discussion, which it isn't.  Twitter is a **** show.

Twitter is an abomination, but it's also apparently an important medium for expressing views.

There's a long list of well-known women who've been run off of Twitter due to harrassment from idiots, not just trans allies but incels and gamergaters and alt-right goons as well.

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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1435 on: September 05, 2020, 09:52:56 am »
 
So as I mentioned before, I think the mainstream news outlets were pretty restrained in what they reported about Yaniv.  And as I said above, I think that the basis of the complaint itself was sufficient to draw attention and raise concern about the outcome of the case. This was unavoidably controversial.

I don't think I have said much about the 'mainstream' news coverage but I think the Canadaland coverage and my comments are mostly about the kind of story commonly described as 'rabble rousing'.

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Publicity concerning Yaniv's behavior resulted in more victims coming forward, as already discussed.
I think declining to report on Yaniv's history of predatory behavior gave readers an inaccurate picture of Yaniv's so-called activism.
I think that Yaniv's history of predatory behavior gives insight into possible motivation for why he targeted these women.

You're supposed to say 'she'. 

But, ok.  It still feels like the conversation is drifting from what it was originally about.  If this person is a predator, and that's the point of the coverage, then I have to think about it.  Maybe I need to listen to the Canadaland piece again - I don't remember this angle to be honest.
 
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The  aestheticians claimed in their defense that they were concerned that having Yaniv in their homes was unsafe; his predatory history is certainly relevant to that defense.

I don't remember this angle.
 
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Also, whenever women raise safety in regard to trans people in women's spaces, trans people and their allies always claim that concerns are unfounded, that it's a myth, that it never happens. But that isn't true, we can point at Yaniv as an example, and there are others as well.  Often crimes committed by trans-women are reported as crimes commited by women. Headline says "Woman arrested in child p0rn bust", and when you look at the mug-shot it's a stubble-faced individual with long hair. "That never happens" is a false narrative, and declining to report on it gives trans allies a pass to keep making that false claim.  Nobody is claiming that all transgender individuals are criminal, but pretending that none of them pose a threat to women is dishonest and dangerous.

So there's bad discussion out there.  Ok.  That's a reflection of a toxic environment and worthy of comment for sure.
 
I don't know what to do about your many complaints about the twitter mob.  Yes, that is terrible but it's terrible on all sides.  I don't hold the twitter mob to the same standard as a newspaper or a blog.

The point I made from the beginning is that a mature argument of rights should happen, and that rights discussions shouldn't be staged as a proxy for the money-generating angertainment that the Sun et. al. love.    I don't see any alternative to using the same process that liberal institutions have been using for decades.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1436 on: September 05, 2020, 03:22:24 pm »
I don't think I have said much about the 'mainstream' news coverage but I think the Canadaland coverage and my comments are mostly about the kind of story commonly described as 'rabble rousing'.

I get the impression that you, and Brown, and probably many in the mainstream media, would prefer that this case not be discussed at all, or that discussion be framed in a way that is sympathetic to trans rights.



You're supposed to say 'she'. 

But, ok.  It still feels like the conversation is drifting from what it was originally about.  If this person is a predator, and that's the point of the coverage, then I have to think about it. 

I have a very hard time convincing myself to care about which pronouns Jessica would prefer.  (Jessica's legal name is now Jessica Simpson, btw. Why? Is she a huge country music fan? Is she Bart and Lisa's long-lost sister?  Most likely Jess picked the last name Simpson to make her ongoing legal action difficult to Google.)

I think the safety of women is a valid consideration in this debate, and I think Yaniv herself is a good example of why women have valid reason for concern.

Maybe I need to listen to the Canadaland piece again - I don't remember this angle to be honest.
 
I don't remember this angle.

Of course not.  Like everybody else who only followed mainstream coverage of the case, you didn't hear the side of the beauticians who had been targeted by Yaniv.  You only got to hear "angles" that addressed the trans rights issue.


So there's bad discussion out there.  Ok.  That's a reflection of a toxic environment and worthy of comment for sure.
 
I don't know what to do about your many complaints about the twitter mob.  Yes, that is terrible but it's terrible on all sides.  I don't hold the twitter mob to the same standard as a newspaper or a blog.

The point I made from the beginning is that a mature argument of rights should happen, and that rights discussions shouldn't be staged as a proxy for the money-generating angertainment that the Sun et. al. love.    I don't see any alternative to using the same process that liberal institutions have been using for decades.


A mature discussion absolutely should happen.   JK Rowling is trying to have a mature conversation about these issues. How is that working out?  Meghan Murphy is trying to have a mature discussion. How is that working out? A bunch of maniacs showing up chanting death threats and carrying around their little fake guillotine in front of attendees doesn't strike me as very conducive to mature discussion.

I guilted you into watching the Meghan Murphy talk, you conceded that she had some good points. You read the JK Rowling essay, you conceded that she had some good points.  To me it seems like people who actually listen to what these women are saying find that they actually have reasonable and legitimate concerns to talk about.  Perhaps that is why trans allies are so desperate to prevent people from actually hearing them.

Those Quillette articles that Jesse Brown mocked in the preamble to his talk with Mary Rogan? They had good points too.  Those are real topics that are real concerns for real people, and they deserve better than Brown's "Homophobia in the trans movement? Ridiculous! Transwomen in women's sport? Fearmongering! Are kids being transitioned unnecessarily? LOLOLOL! TERFs being silenced? Cry me a river! Transwomen in women's prisons? LOLOLOL! Scaremongering!"  Brown is part of the problem.   Brown and people like him are the ones closing the door on having a mature conversation about any of this. Brown and people like him don't give a crap about having a mature discussion about these issues, all they care about is not drawing the ire of the goons that shout "TRANSPHOBE!" at anybody who raises even the most basic concern or makes the mildest criticism.


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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1437 on: September 06, 2020, 08:40:31 am »
I get the impression that you, and Brown, and probably many in the mainstream media, would prefer that this case not be discussed at all, or that discussion be framed in a way that is sympathetic to trans rights.

If it weren't discussed at all, that would be fine with me as I expect hardly any Human Rights Commission cases are given this kind of coverage.  I don't want to suppress discussion of it, though, as I said umpteen times.

Would I want the discussion framed 'sympathetic to trans rights' ?   I thought about that, and I think I just want those discussing it to take a 'high road' and use the tone that the judgements themselves usually take.  That's what I want.

 


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I have a very hard time convincing myself to care about which pronouns Jessica would prefer.  (Jessica's legal name is now Jessica Simpson, btw. Why? Is she a huge country music fan? Is she Bart and Lisa's long-lost sister?  Most likely Jess picked the last name Simpson to make her ongoing legal action difficult to Google.)

I think the safety of women is a valid consideration in this debate, and I think Yaniv herself is a good example of why women have valid reason for concern.

Systems can't be built to be foolproof.  Malevolent actors can trick them, circumvent them and even hijack them and use them for their own goals.  The legal system is built on rights guaranteed to groups, with the details being worked out through smaller cases like this.

Discussions of systems, rights and rulings work best when they are dispassionate and yet humane.  That let's the stakeholders get a wide view of what is being traded off here. 

My problem has always been with coverage that makes this case into something personal, and does so for the benefit of the angertainment industry and its audience.

If the story is about Yaniv and her bad personality, then go ahead and misgender her and get angry I guess.  But rights cases deserve a different kind of coverage when they are covered.

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Of course not.  Like everybody else who only followed mainstream coverage of the case, you didn't hear the side of the beauticians who had been targeted by Yaniv.  You only got to hear "angles" that addressed the trans rights issue.

The Canadaland piece was about the media coverage.  I didn't read much about the case at all other than that.

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A mature discussion absolutely should happen.   JK Rowling is trying to have a mature conversation about these issues. How is that working out?  Meghan Murphy is trying to have a mature discussion. How is that working out? A bunch of maniacs showing up chanting death threats and carrying around their little fake guillotine in front of attendees doesn't strike me as very conducive to mature discussion.

Exactly.  The way to fix that is for people to focus on the merits of the arguments and not tangential things.

I don't think all of JK Rowling's points are valid, but I also don't think she should be threatened for stating them.  I don't think that people who believe LGBTQ+ folks should be jailed should be threatened either, or virulent racists.   

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I guilted you into watching the Meghan Murphy talk, you conceded that she had some good points. You read the JK Rowling essay, you conceded that she had some good points.  To me it seems like people who actually listen to what these women are saying find that they actually have reasonable and legitimate concerns to talk about.  Perhaps that is why trans allies are so desperate to prevent people from actually hearing them.

I think that their opponents are just morally disgusted by them, just as people are disgusted by homophobes and racists.  I am not disgusted by any of these groups, so much.  I know that they exist, and I think the best approach is to give them no attention whatsoever.
 
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Those Quillette articles that Jesse Brown mocked in the preamble to his talk with Mary Rogan? They had good points too.

I haven't had time to listen to the piece again.  Quilette isn't really accepted as a centrist publication, though.  Maybe that is a problem, I don't know. 

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1438 on: September 06, 2020, 03:25:30 pm »
Would I want the discussion framed 'sympathetic to trans rights' ?   I thought about that, and I think I just want those discussing it to take a 'high road' and use the tone that the judgements themselves usually take.  That's what I want.

I think that it needs to be emphasised that this is not just a trans rights question but also a women's rights question and in many cases a religious rights question.

Systems can't be built to be foolproof.  Malevolent actors can trick them, circumvent them and even hijack them and use them for their own goals.  The legal system is built on rights guaranteed to groups, with the details being worked out through smaller cases like this.

It seems to me that in other areas, we consider potentially bad outcomes beforehand when we are designing legislation.  When we draw up gun laws, we consider that some number of bad-people will try to obtain guns and shoot people, and consider ways to make that less likely.  When we design driving laws, we consider ways to make sure that people who drive cars have some level of competency.   To me it seems like in giving trans people access to women's spaces, little if any thought has been given to potential bad outcomes.

Our current government promised that "Gender Based Analysis" would be applied to policies, and I'd be very interested to know if such an analysis was ever done in regard to C-16.

Exactly.  The way to fix that is for people to focus on the merits of the arguments and not tangential things.

I don't think all of JK Rowling's points are valid, but I also don't think she should be threatened for stating them.  I don't think that people who believe LGBTQ+ folks should be jailed should be threatened either, or virulent racists.   

I think that their opponents are just morally disgusted by them, just as people are disgusted by homophobes and racists.  I am not disgusted by any of these groups, so much.  I know that they exist, and I think the best approach is to give them no attention whatsoever.

If you hear Jesse Brown or Carol Off or some other media figure describe someone or something as transphobic is that sufficient in your mind to decide that they deserve no attention?  To me it seems like we are at a point where contrary opinions are dismissed out of hand because some random mob has decided they're wrong-think. Did Jesse Brown read a single one of those Quillette articles he dismissed as transphobic nonsense, or did he just assume that to be the case because "everybody says so"?  Did Carol Off watch a Meghan Murphy speech before comparing her to a Neo Nazi, or was she basing that on the opinion of the mob with the fake guillotine shouting death threats outside the library?

I haven't had time to listen to the piece again.  Quilette isn't really accepted as a centrist publication, though.  Maybe that is a problem, I don't know.

This is somewhat a circular argument, though. If we're only supposed to consider stuff that centrist and mainstream outlets would publish, and mainstream and centrist outlets are only willing to publish stuff that is favorable to the trans movement, then by by definition we're only listening to stuff that is favorable to the trans movement.  Quillette may not be a centrist or mainstream publication, but it is a publication that is willing to post the other side of the argument, including pieces from accomplished writers and commentators.

Bari Weiss didn't quit the New York Times in regard to anything to do with trans coverage, as far as I know. But when she quit, she wrote a letter complaining that Twitter had become the paper's real editor. That they'd become afraid of publishing anything that went against the flow of popular opinion. And to me it seems like coverage of trans issues is a prime example of what she is talking about.

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The civil war inside The New York Times between the (mostly young) wokes the (mostly 40+) liberals is the same one raging inside other publications and companies across the country. The dynamic is always the same. (Thread.)

https://twitter.com/bariweiss/status/1268628680797978625


 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #1439 on: September 06, 2020, 03:37:49 pm »
If we are really the same, why even bother with the 'trans'-woman qualifier?

They don't like that qualifier. Their main mantra is "Trans women are women." They see "cisgender" women (ie, actual vag1na people) as simply a subset of women. They don't believe woman is defined by biological factors at all, they believe woman is a notion in peoples' heads.

Disconnected from biological reality, "woman" becomes basically just an expression of affinity towards traditional gender roles, which isn't "progressive" at all, it's actually incredibly regressive.

 -k
« Last Edit: September 06, 2020, 03:55:02 pm by kimmy »
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