Author Topic: Evolving Democracy  (Read 251 times)

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guest4

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Re: Evolving Democracy
« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2018, 07:32:29 pm »
As usual, you miss the point COMPLETELY.
I don't think so.  This video is presented with very little context and claims are made.  Looks like propaganda.

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You point out that this guy has dumb views, and therefore the police are good for taking care of him.
Nope.  I point out the context of a march by alt-right, counter-protesters, and a group from one side being prevented from going in a particular direction.  I don't know what direction he's prevented from going in; I note that he's offered two other options.   Maybe the police are trying to direct him to the alt-right guest area; ever think of that?   And, in some thread a while ago about an alt-right/anti-fa clash in Quebec, wasn't it the considered opinion that it was the job of the police to keep these groups apart so there wasn't any violence?

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Now I don't know anything about this guy or his group or their views.
Exactly.  You also don't know much about what's going on in the video, either.  You especially don't know what happened before, or even after the camera stopped recording.   

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I guess you had a lot of spare time to look all that up.
Took about 40 minutes; not that much time on a sunny afternoon on the patio.   :)

Clarification:  The *research* took about 10 minutes.  Writing the post and copying the links over took 30.


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However, I can speak English. The police keep asking for who he is and where he lives and he keeps saying "I don't have to give you any details unless I've broken the law". So your idea they know him and were thus justified in blocking him from attending a rally don't seem to go well together.
The police will ask for ideinfication details even when they know who you are: it's part of procedure, dotting their i's and crossing their t's.   

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Second, you took a lot of time and trouble looking into who he was and his views and I'm fairly sure if he'd ever been involved in any violence you'd have posted that. Since you didn't, I'm going to assume that he has no such history.
Given the prevalence of false news production, I am making a much more concerted effort to examine stories - even ones I want to believe - in an attempt to gain actual information and not just stupid rhetoric.  Therefore, I took some time to look into the context of the video you presented - the event, and just what Section 35 means in the UK.  I then followed it up with a bit of research into who the presenter of the video was.  I did not look to find out if he'd been involved in violence. 

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So what we have here is a guy trying attend a legal rally of some sort, along with a lot of other people, being blocked by police and sent off on various pretexts.
Exactly.  And from that the presenters want viewers to think that it's because they hold views that the government doesn't approve.  And, instead of employing any basic critical thinking skills, some people just assumed that the video must accurately depict alt-right wingers being persecuted.

One of the first things that occurred to me, when I found out that the march was an 'alt-right'march and the presenter was alt-right activist, how anyone could think that the government was trying to shut down viewpoints with which they disagreed.  If that were the case, how would the Lads have been able to have a rally at all?

The video is alt-right propaganda.  Instead of whinging about it and telling me how wrong I am, do your own damn due diligence next time and make sure you aren't being gulled. 
 
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Evolving Democracy
« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2018, 08:26:00 pm »
You're kidding, right? They frequently infiltrate left wing groups, at times deploying agents provocateurs into otherwise peaceful rallies. The entire history of Canada and the United States is about union busting and suppressing left-wing ideologies. And the groups don't even have to be violent. They just have to have the audacity of protesting for better conditions.

First of all, I doubt there's a far right group with more than six people in the whole of Canada, the US, or western Europe that hasn't been infiltrated by police.
Second, I've found the fighting and police interevention between these groups, both in the US, and Europe, and to a lesser extent in Canada, to be a heavy presence on You Tube. And in every case I saw, most of which were major news media coverage, the people the police were having trouble with were the ones on the Left. From reports in the Canadian media it's not any different here.

In the UK, it's mostly the same. Some anti-Islam group stages a demo, and a bunch of anti-fascists/anti-racists show up to scream abuse and throw themselves at police lines. The only time I've seen the police have any major problems with the right wing political groups were recently over the Tommy Robinson affair. So if I was a cop preparing for such a rally it'd be the Left wing bunch I'd focus on.

"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Evolving Democracy
« Reply #47 on: August 10, 2018, 09:00:16 pm »
Nope.  I point out the context of a march by alt-right, counter-protesters, and a group from one side being prevented from going in a particular direction.  I don't know what direction he's prevented from going in; I note that he's offered two other options.   Maybe the police are trying to direct him to the alt-right guest area;

It seemed clear to me they had decided he was live streaming and forbad him from attending the rally. Period.
This is similar to what happened with Tommy Robinson when he was arrested for live-streaming outside a trial.

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One of the first things that occurred to me, when I found out that the march was an 'alt-right'march and the presenter was alt-right activist, how anyone could think that the government was trying to shut down viewpoints with which they disagreed.  If that were the case, how would the Lads have been able to have a rally at all?

Because there's no law that can stop people from peacefully assembling in such a march? You think the DC police wanted to grant a permit for a white power group to demonstrate in the city this weekend?

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The video is alt-right propaganda.

First, you're falling into the common error of dismissing anything which comes from outside the mainstream as 'propaganda'. That's simply not the case. These are people who, for the most part, aren't exactly well-organized political groups but merely angry, frustrated people. Individuals or small groups of them. In Europe, that mainly translates to groups who are opposed to Islam making inroads into Western society. Now you describe this as a demo from the "Football Lads Alliance". Wikipedia describes them as an anti-extremist group, mostly protesting against Muslim extremism. There's no record here of violence, racism or misogyny.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Lads_Alliance

I saw a speech Douglas Murray gave the other day to a group in Denmark. And he talked about the need for freedom of speech. I can post if it anyone's interested, but one part of it I got from a transcript seems pertinent.

The British principle of free speech was always, it's not a right. It's a necessity to keep a society free. Because the reason why free speech in the British tradition came about, through Milton, Mill and others, was that you had to hear dissident voices, you had to hear contrary opinions. Because only if you could hear those opinions and allow yourself to hear them and see them and read them, could you first of all work out if you yourself were in error. If you were not in error, it would strengthen the truth which you held by hearing a contrary opinion. But also it was possible that that contrary opinion against the overwhelming consensus of your time might turn out to be right. And if it does turn out to be right, you should not disable yourself from being able to hear it, to see it, to read it. Because this is the only way to avoid error.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Evolving Democracy
« Reply #48 on: April 08, 2019, 05:25:23 pm »
Faith Goldy -> OFF FACEBOOK  :o