Author Topic: Economics Culture  (Read 376 times)

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Offline wilber

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2019, 07:28:50 pm »


Yeah, on the level of providing leisure time and goods it did better than what was there before.



If you call what is in China communist then yes but certainly not in Eastern Europe.
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Offline Poonlight Graham

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2019, 08:20:16 pm »
The interview was some time ago and can't currently find a link to it. In essence he said there are many factory type jobs that could be taken over by robots so people wouldn't have to do mindless work of making widgets etc. Cashflow would need to be maintained so people could still buy the widgets but they could also expand their horizons beyond factory work.

Well I agree with that.  It's a good thing when boring manual labour can be done by robots...as long as people can find better work.
"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"  - African proverb

Offline Poonlight Graham

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #32 on: September 03, 2019, 08:31:22 pm »
Why now ?

Huh?

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Yeah, on the level of providing leisure time and goods it did better than what was there before.

Well yes of course, but it didn't come close to the imagined utopia.  Hell, you now need two incomes and have to work harder and longer to maintain the middle-class standard of living compared to 40 years ago.  Yes we have nicer things than 40 years ago, but at what social costs?  The state & other strangers are now raising our children in daycares because both parents have to work to scrape by.  More free time my a.ss!

Much of what two incomes families has done is helped crank up the price of housing.  If people really want that house they like in that area they like, they're going to bid as much as they can possibly afford (and then some).  Price = Supply + demand.

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It's time to revisit it.  Capitalism is subject to history too.

Sure, just don't repeat the same mistakes of the past.
"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"  - African proverb

Offline MH

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2019, 05:41:54 am »
If you call what is in China communist then yes but certainly not in Eastern Europe.

There is no Communism in Eastern Europe anymore.

Offline MH

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2019, 05:43:44 am »
Well I agree with that.  It's a good thing when boring manual labour can be done by robots...as long as people can find better work.

The one thing I like about Fully Automated Luxury Communism is that they fix how we think of jobs back to it being 'labour' ie. 'stuff we have to do'.

There is NO shortage of work.  What needs to happen is allocation towards what work needs to be done, and sharing of how much work to do.  For example, we could all benefit from a shorter work week now.

Offline MH

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2019, 05:49:18 am »
1. Huh?

2. Well yes of course, but it didn't come close to the imagined utopia. 

3. Hell, you now need two incomes and have to work harder and longer to maintain the middle-class standard of living compared to 40 years ago.  Yes we have nicer things than 40 years ago, but at what social costs?  The state & other strangers are now raising our children in daycares because both parents have to work to scrape by.  More free time my a.ss!

4. Much of what two incomes families has done is helped crank up the price of housing.  If people really want that house they like in that area they like, they're going to bid as much as they can possibly afford (and then some).  Price = Supply + demand.

Sure, just don't repeat the same mistakes of the past.
1. If I nationalize GM, I don't have to nationalize Chrysler.  If I nationalize both of them I don't have to merge them into both companies.  Or maybe I can, and they compete with other modes of transportation like mass transit for your transportation dollar.  Who competes head-on with CostCo ?  They are roughly unique in their field.

2. True enough.  But the competition (open liberal democracy) made it look bad compared to them.

3. Now you're making the case against laissez-faire capitalism.  Keep going ! :D

4. You're making the mistake of looking at a more recent phenomenon and attributing it to the system we have had post-WWII.    I would say we don't know exactly what is happening with the housing situation.

Offline Poonlight Graham

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2019, 09:40:00 am »
There is no Communism in Eastern Europe anymore.

No communism in China anymore either.  Just totalitarianism and capitalism.
"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"  - African proverb

Offline Poonlight Graham

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #37 on: September 04, 2019, 10:10:51 am »
1. If I nationalize GM, I don't have to nationalize Chrysler.  If I nationalize both of them I don't have to merge them into both companies.  Or maybe I can, and they compete with other modes of transportation like mass transit for your transportation dollar.

Ok well i guess you're a communist now, good luck with that.

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Who competes head-on with CostCo ?  They are roughly unique in their field.

Every single other place that sells food, clothing, books, toys, electronics, and car batteries.

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3. Now you're making the case against laissez-faire capitalism.  Keep going ! :D

Good because i'm not for laissez-faire capitalism. I've argued if automation makes businesses far more productive then tax the rich & their companies and redistribute the money.

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4. You're making the mistake of looking at a more recent phenomenon and attributing it to the system we have had post-WWII.    I would say we don't know exactly what is happening with the housing situation.

Rising housing costs = foreign investment, cheap mortgage credit post-2008 recession, continued increase in two-income families, domestic housing speculation (every other person has a damn investment property they're renting out), population growth + large-scale immigration where the vast majority are moving to large urban cities etc.  In short, mishandled or a lack of government regulation.

That doesn't mean we need to nationalize the housing industry & banks. It means we need better government regulation on the industry that prioritizes regular people over maximizing profits of developers, banks, investors etc.
"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"  - African proverb
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Offline wilber

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #38 on: September 04, 2019, 12:45:17 pm »
There is no Communism in Eastern Europe anymore.

Exactly. Eastern European countries were better off both before and after communism.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline wilber

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #39 on: September 04, 2019, 12:46:46 pm »
No communism in China anymore either.  Just totalitarianism and capitalism.

Pretty much. The Chinese excel at capitalism.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Poonlight Graham

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #40 on: September 04, 2019, 01:36:36 pm »
Pretty much. The Chinese excel at capitalism.

A billion wage-slaves run by their greedy/crooked masters seem to be doing well.

Beats subsistence farming i guess.
"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"  - African proverb

Offline wilber

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #41 on: September 04, 2019, 02:16:00 pm »
A billion wage-slaves run by their greedy/crooked masters seem to be doing well.

Beats subsistence farming i guess.
Their cities are also full of mom and pop type business'.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Poonlight Graham

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #42 on: September 04, 2019, 03:28:45 pm »
Their cities are also full of mom and pop type business'.

Their economy isn't exploding because of domestic consumption...yet.
"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"  - African proverb

Offline Omni

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #43 on: September 04, 2019, 03:38:21 pm »
Their economy isn't exploding because of domestic consumption...yet.

Trump's stupid trade war will have both economies IMploding if he carries on.

Offline MH

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #44 on: September 05, 2019, 05:34:42 am »
1. Ok well i guess you're a communist now, good luck with that.

2. Every single other place that sells food, clothing, books, toys, electronics, and car batteries.

3. Good because i'm not for laissez-faire capitalism. I've argued if automation makes businesses far more productive then tax the rich & their companies and redistribute the money.

4. Rising housing costs = foreign investment, cheap mortgage credit post-2008 recession, continued increase in two-income families, domestic housing speculation (every other person has a damn investment property they're renting out), population growth + large-scale immigration where the vast majority are moving to large urban cities etc.  In short, mishandled or a lack of government regulation.

5. That doesn't mean we need to nationalize the housing industry & banks. It means we need better government regulation on the industry that prioritizes regular people over maximizing profits of developers, banks, investors etc.

1. Ha.  No, please don't call me that because I elaborated on nationalization.
2. True - just as 'nationalized' auto companies would compete with broad modes of transportation like subways.
3. Let's revisit why we allow there to be 'the rich' - do you remember ?
4. This came out of the discussion of leisure time, and presumably how rising housing costs are forcing us to work too much.
5. I'm a liberal like you, but at a certain point systems change.  Will we still have money in 10,000 years ?  I think we're more likely going to be like Star Trek - ie. just collaborating on projects.