Author Topic: Economics Culture  (Read 376 times)

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Offline MH

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2019, 06:51:52 am »
1. When the industrial revolution happened people thought we'd have a lot more leisure time.  Oops

2. Standard of living changes.  Also, you need the money to own the means of production for it to work for you.

3. Not working would also lead to social decay.  People need a reason to wake up in the morning, and something to strive towards.  I've met a lot of dopey retired people who do nothing all day, it's not good for the mind or body.  Some of them spend their time on message boards  :P

Times of plenty create soft people, as the saying goes.

1. And why didn't we?  What changed in industrial tech to give us weekends?

2. I don't understand this sentence.

3. Working still would happen, but you would work less on commodity and goods producing labour and less on other things.

Offline the_squid

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2019, 12:06:06 pm »
When the industrial revolution happened people thought we'd have a lot more leisure time.  Oops

No...   that wasnít a train of thought in the 1700s with the working class, or those who owned the factories, during the industrial revolution.

Maybe youíre confusing the industrial revolution with automation.

ETA:   We definitely have a LOT more leisure time than they did in the 1700s during the industrial revolution...   your point is nonsensical.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2019, 12:45:02 pm by the_squid »

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2019, 12:38:48 pm »
People need a reason to wake up in the morning, and something to strive towards.

Plenty of reasons other than wasting your time transferring wealth to the wealthy.
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Offline Poonlight Graham

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2019, 02:09:10 pm »
Plenty of reasons other than wasting your time transferring wealth to the wealthy.

Then work for yourself.

Also, if you think that's the sum total of what "work" is, you'll become a lot more appreciative of "jobs" when they start to be eliminated by automation in mass quantities.
"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"  - African proverb

Offline the_squid

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2019, 02:19:27 pm »
Then work for yourself.

Also, if you think that's the sum total of what "work" is, you'll become a lot more appreciative of "jobs" when they start to be eliminated by automation in mass quantities.

Iím very much looking forward to a jobless world....   

Offline Omni

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2019, 02:33:47 pm »
Then work for yourself.

Also, if you think that's the sum total of what "work" is, you'll become a lot more appreciative of "jobs" when they start to be eliminated by automation in mass quantities.

It's important to look forward on this issue not backwards. Automation is here and expanding and who the hell wants to spend all day punching out license plates anyway. Let the machines do those jobs and then share the proceeds. Warren Buffet had an interesting concept on just that idea he outlined in an interview I heard a while back. Simply put, if GM for instance had robots punching out all its cars but nobody could buy them, what would be the point?

Offline MH

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2019, 02:45:41 pm »
There are lots of simple answers.

For example, the people thank the capitalists for their assistance in getting us here, then nationalize the assets of GM.

It would be much cheaper for us to run it on a cost coverage basis. Other things to consider would be ending patent and trademark protection.

Offline Poonlight Graham

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2019, 02:49:41 pm »
Iím very much looking forward to a jobless world....

Well, that's assuming the people who own the AI are going to give you money to live on, which seems doubtful.

The only hope is governments taxing the wealthy and redistributing to the rest of us.  Universal basic income etc.
"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"  - African proverb
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Offline MH

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2019, 03:38:19 pm »
No imagination, people.

Just nationalize the company.

Offline Poonlight Graham

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2019, 04:20:44 pm »
There are lots of simple answers.

For example, the people thank the capitalists for their assistance in getting us here, then nationalize the assets of GM.

It would be much cheaper for us to run it on a cost coverage basis.

If you nationalize then you get rid of competition, which lowers the incentive for innovation and efficiency.  Just tax the wealthy and the people who own the machines instead.

You're making the exact same (flawed) arguments communists & marxists were making after the industrial revolution.

Marxists also thought the industrial revolution (machines providing labour) + communism would free us to pursue other interests like arts and other leisure activities.  This utopia didn't happen, turns out people just became greedy with consumerism and wanted more and more "stuff".  So i predict when automation happens en masse people will just keep wanting more and more stuff (unfortunately).

If you don't learn from history you're doomed to repeat it.
"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"  - African proverb

Offline Poonlight Graham

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2019, 04:26:02 pm »
Let the machines do those jobs and then share the proceeds.

Again, this is the same argument Marxists were making in 19th century.  It didn't work out that way

I dunno, maybe with mass automation something will be different.  But we can't underestimate the greed of the average consumer, or the greed of the average share-holder.

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Simply put, if GM for instance had robots punching out all its cars but nobody could buy them, what would be the point?

Yes i agree with this, this is essentially Fordism, where Henry Ford paid his workers more than he could have so they would buy the vehicles Ford was producing.
"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"  - African proverb

Offline Omni

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2019, 04:27:06 pm »
If you nationalize then you get rid of competition, which lowers the incentive for innovation and efficiency.  Just tax the wealthy and the people who own the machines instead.

You're making the exact same (flawed) arguments communists & marxists were making after the industrial revolution.

Marxists also thought the industrial revolution (machines providing labour) + communism would free us to pursue other interests like arts and other leisure activities.  This utopia didn't happen, turns out people just became greedy with consumerism and wanted more and more "stuff".  So i predict when automation happens en masse people will just keep wanting more and more stuff (unfortunately).

If you don't learn from history you're doomed to repeat it.

I sort of don't think Warren Buffet is a communist.

Offline Poonlight Graham

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2019, 04:31:09 pm »
I sort of don't think Warren Buffet is a communist.

Well no, but ironically, when looking at his peers, he's easily one of the most ethical big-time capitalists ever.

What exactly was his idea?  Need more details.
"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"  - African proverb

Offline Omni

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2019, 04:42:52 pm »
Well no, but ironically, when looking at his peers, he's easily one of the most ethical big-time capitalists ever.

What exactly was his idea?  Need more details.

The interview was some time ago and can't currently find a link to it. In essence he said there are many factory type jobs that could be taken over by robots so people wouldn't have to do mindless work of making widgets etc. Cashflow would need to be maintained so people could still buy the widgets but they could also expand their horizons beyond factory work.

Offline MH

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Re: Economics Culture
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2019, 05:58:51 pm »
If you nationalize then you get rid of competition,

Why now ?

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Marxists also thought the industrial revolution (machines providing labour) + communism would free us to pursue other interests like arts and other leisure activities.  This utopia didn't happen

Yeah, on the level of providing leisure time and goods it did better than what was there before.

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If you don't learn from history you're doomed to repeat it.

It's time to revisit it.  Capitalism is subject to history too.