Author Topic: Defund the Police  (Read 9332 times)

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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #225 on: April 22, 2021, 09:28:55 pm »
"Why has government been instituted at all? Because the passions of man will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice without constraint." - Alexander Hamilton

Not everyone is a monster obviously, the problem is there's still many jerks out there and that will never change, no matter how much you reduce poverty and increase mental health services etc.  You can help reduce some of the causes of crime, like poverty, but you'll never eliminate all crime, ever.  For every nice law-abiding person living in your neighbourhood you're going to have arse-hats too.

What's the ratio of asshats to law abiders? Evidence has shown the majority of violent crimes are perpetrated by a small number of persistent violent offenders; it seems unlikely to me that there is a significant number of people who would **** and murder but for the fact that they know the cops are out there somewhere, certainly not enough to justify the exorbitant economic and social costs of modern policing.

I mean if the concern is getting rid of the police would result in violent gangs roaming the streets who are accountable to no one, I have bad news for you about who the police are.

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If there's no cops enforcing speeding, what % of cars do you think would speed?  Every time I see a cop on the highway I see every car around me slow down.

Why do you need some juiced up prick with a gun to enforce speed limits?

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The idea of disbanding the police in favour of social programs etc is so illogical that it will never be done on a wide scale because it simply won't work.  So it comes down to how can we make police the most accountable as possible and actually serve the public and honour their oaths.  There will always be racists and power-mongers among the police no matter what, but we can minimize the damage they do via training and accountability etc so that they're not able to get away with it and lose their jobs or are put in jail.

The vision of the Defund movement may be utopian, but it is far more realistic than your notion that we can make the police accountable while maintaining the existing model, or that the issues with police are down to a few "bad apples." Frankly, it's a f**king joke.

Offline Queen LaQueefa

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #226 on: April 22, 2021, 10:57:10 pm »
I mean if the concern is getting rid of the police would result in violent gangs roaming the streets who are accountable to no one, I have bad news for you about who the police are.

If you remove the police there would be a power vacuum, and it would be filled with criminals/gangs, and also local militias of private citizens carrying guns, and vigilantes/hitmen, and everyone buying a gun for their own protection.  Either way, yes there's going to be people roaming the streets with guns no matter what, and I'd prefer they at least be someone accountable.  I'd rather Canada not turn into Somalia where the rule of law was non-existent for a long period and society was ruled by competing warlords.

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Why do you need some juiced up prick with a gun to enforce speed limits?

If there's no cops why would anyone obey any laws?  Are they just suggestions?  Why would I pay a speeding ticket?  Who's going to make me?  What is the punishment for unpaid speeding tickets?   Unfiled tax returns?  Who would force me to go to court?  People could just buy a gun and steal cars or rob stores for a living, who will stop them?

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The vision of the Defund movement may be utopian, but it is far more realistic than your notion that we can make the police accountable while maintaining the existing model, or that the issues with police are down to a few "bad apples." Frankly, it's a f**king joke.

Have we ever tried to make police more accountable?  I just don't see it.  It happened with Chauvin, and he got convicted.  The police chief even testified against him, the thin blue line was broken.  Have we ever REALLY tried to reform the system?  And I agree that maybe reform isn't possible and they have to fire all the cops and rehire and train a new group from scratch with new oversight and training.

Also I never said there's just a few bad apples, there's lots of bad apples that get away with a lot of BS and others who say nothing because if they did they'd be harassed by other cops as a narc.   The system doesn't work.  https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/what-police-departments-do-whistle-blowers/613687/
« Last Edit: April 22, 2021, 10:58:47 pm by Gorgeous Graham »
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #227 on: April 23, 2021, 06:47:27 am »
Am I scared. Of a group of whites, or a group of blacks?   Well, I can tell you definitively that whiteys are way more apt to be biker gangs here than any minority...  might be different in Surrey, or different in Richmond as to who the dangerous ones are...  but making up fantasy scenarios about groups of black people doesn’t prove anything...

Actually, it probably shows more about your prejudices than anything else...
The real racism is in the implication of the question. When he thinks about blacks, he thinks about kids in gangs. When he thinks about whites, he thinks about knitting church ladies. He doesn't think about white biker gangs or white supremacist gangs for white people and he's not thinking about black entrepreneurs in suits. And that there is the rub. The scenario as presented was dripping with implied racism and he doesn't even realize it, nor will he admit it and apologize now that I've made it clear. When a compliant 16 year old child is murdered by the police and a literal white murderer is brought out for chicken nuggets before being booked in....it isn't about risk. Not one bit.
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #228 on: April 23, 2021, 06:50:16 am »
Dude literally says we don't know what those consequences would be, but if doing away with policing as it is currently constituted is accompanied by a significant increase in resources to eliminate the causes of crime, why would you expect crime to go up unless you think everyone around you is secretly a monster whose base urges are only held in check by the threat of state violence?

He also contends that the issue isn't having some body to maintain order and enforce laws, but the nature of modern policing and society itself.
It's also interesting to go back and look at the advent of policing, which was literally to harass and institutionalize the homeless and unemployed. Rather than address the sources of those problems, they punish people who suffer from them.
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #229 on: April 23, 2021, 07:04:27 am »
If anyone wonders why cops seem to regard their role as that of an occupying military force, here's an article about one of the foremost police training "experts" that explains how that mindset comes to be.

Here's an insane twitter thread of Grossman in action.

It's bonkers.
Years ago I worked at a bookstore and we sold a **** ton of his book On Killing. Granted, there's a huge military base near me. But that should tell you that this isn't a uniquely American issue.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #230 on: April 23, 2021, 08:39:59 am »
If you remove the police there would be a power vacuum, and it would be filled with criminals/gangs, and also local militias of private citizens carrying guns, and vigilantes/hitmen, and everyone buying a gun for their own protection.  Either way, yes there's going to be people roaming the streets with guns no matter what, and I'd prefer they at least be someone accountable.  I'd rather Canada not turn into Somalia where the rule of law was non-existent for a long period and society was ruled by competing warlords.

Sorry but this is insane. Like, I'm kind of in awe of just how insane it is.

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If there's no cops why would anyone obey any laws?  Are they just suggestions?  Why would I pay a speeding ticket?  Who's going to make me?  What is the punishment for unpaid speeding tickets?   Unfiled tax returns?  Who would force me to go to court?  People could just buy a gun and steal cars or rob stores for a living, who will stop them?

Your assuming here that all we're doing is removing the police and that's it, which shows you haven't paid any attention to the proposals at all.

Also you didn't answer my question as to why we need a juiced up prick with a gun to enforce traffic laws or civil violations.

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Have we ever tried to make police more accountable?  I just don't see it.

They've poured millions into "bias training", body cameras, civilian review boards. Nothing works because the problem isn't a few bad cops.

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It happened with Chauvin, and he got convicted.  The police chief even testified against him, the thin blue line was broken.

One cop was sacrificed to preserve the system.

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Have we ever REALLY tried to reform the system?  And I agree that maybe reform isn't possible and they have to fire all the cops and rehire and train a new group from scratch with new oversight and training.

That's... exactly what I've been talking about? A new body with a different mandate, training, culture and vastly different responsibilities.

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Also I never said there's just a few bad apples, there's lots of bad apples that get away with a lot of BS and others who say nothing because if they did they'd be harassed by other cops as a narc.  The system doesn't work.  https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/what-police-departments-do-whistle-blowers/613687/

Yet you insist that the system is reformable as-is. Seems weird!

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #231 on: April 23, 2021, 08:42:34 am »
Years ago I worked at a bookstore and we sold a **** ton of his book On Killing. Granted, there's a huge military base near me. But that should tell you that this isn't a uniquely American issue.

I read it waaaay back in the day and thought it was interesting from a military nerd standpoint but it's pretty shocking to see domestic police forces adopt his ideas.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #232 on: April 23, 2021, 10:31:49 am »
I read it waaaay back in the day and thought it was interesting from a military nerd standpoint but it's pretty shocking to see domestic police forces adopt his ideas.
And why not...since they've adopted military hardware. Police are not a military but the lines are being blurred more and more. Citizens are not enemy combatants, but again, cops are being trained to see and treat them as such. Meanwhile, they have a fraction of the obligations of military personnel and far less training.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #233 on: April 23, 2021, 10:59:37 am »
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Offline Queen LaQueefa

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #234 on: April 23, 2021, 02:06:23 pm »
The real racism is in the implication of the question. When he thinks about blacks, he thinks about kids in gangs. When he thinks about whites, he thinks about knitting church ladies. He doesn't think about white biker gangs or white supremacist gangs for white people and he's not thinking about black entrepreneurs in suits. And that there is the rub. The scenario as presented was dripping with implied racism and he doesn't even realize it, nor will he admit it and apologize now that I've made it clear. When a compliant 16 year old child is murdered by the police and a literal white murderer is brought out for chicken nuggets before being booked in....it isn't about risk. Not one bit.

LOL what a joke.  Way to take everything I said out of context so you can virtue signal.  Your smug self-righteousness is noted.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 02:21:23 pm by Gorgeous Graham »
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Offline Queen LaQueefa

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #235 on: April 23, 2021, 02:08:20 pm »
It's also interesting to go back and look at the advent of policing, which was literally to harass and institutionalize the homeless and unemployed. Rather than address the sources of those problems, they punish people who suffer from them.

Police were created with the sole purpose to " harass and institutionalize the homeless and unemployed"?  LOL what nonsense.  I'm sure it was part of their M.O., but it wasn;t their raison d'etre  Please post evidence for this claim.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 02:22:40 pm by Gorgeous Graham »
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Offline Queen LaQueefa

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #236 on: April 23, 2021, 02:17:59 pm »
Sorry but this is insane. Like, I'm kind of in awe of just how insane it is.

Why?  Please explain.  They removed the Saddam regime in Iraq and it turned into a den of insurgents and terrorists.  There was a power vacuum and these vacuums are typically filled by someone else.  Restorative justice alone won't work, is my point.  It's insane.

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Your assuming here that all we're doing is removing the police and that's it, which shows you haven't paid any attention to the proposals at all.

This is a strawman.  My response was based on the proposal of getting rid of the police and having restorative justice with social workers etc replace cops and more funding to help reduce poverty and mental illness.  You need cops of some kind.  People with guns to stop other people with guns.

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They've poured millions into "bias training", body cameras, civilian review boards. Nothing works because the problem isn't a few bad cops.

I never said it was a few bad cops, ever.  Yes the problem goes beyond these things.  Body cameras and smartphone cameras have helped a lot, but they don't solve the problem because oversight doesn't work if accountability is weak.

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That's... exactly what I've been talking about? A new body with a different mandate, training, culture and vastly different responsibilities.

So you agree that getting rid of police altogether, having nobody to enforce laws with guns, and only have restorative justice and funding for poverty and mental illness is not enough for any system to prevent crime, and that some people wit guns are necessary as long as they are trained and held accountable?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 02:19:41 pm by Gorgeous Graham »
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #237 on: April 23, 2021, 03:25:32 pm »
Why?  Please explain.  They removed the Saddam regime in Iraq and it turned into a den of insurgents and terrorists.  There was a power vacuum and these vacuums are typically filled by someone else.  Restorative justice alone won't work, is my point.  It's insane.

Gee I dunno know man because we're not a failed state or one ruled with an iron fist by a dictator?

And anyway your line about "restorative justice alone won't work" is dumb because literally no one is saying restorative justice is the only thing we should do.

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This is a strawman.  My response was based on the proposal of getting rid of the police and having restorative justice with social workers etc replace cops and more funding to help reduce poverty and mental illness.  You need cops of some kind.  People with guns to stop other people with guns.

OK, let's say that's true: who gives a s**t? The point you continue to ignore is that 90% of of what cops today has f**k all to do with "stopping people with guns" and can be offloaded to other services better equipped to do them. it's weird that you have such a dim view of cops and yet have completely internalized their propaganda about the role they play in our society.

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I never said it was a few bad cops, ever.  Yes the problem goes beyond these things.  Body cameras and smartphone cameras have helped a lot, but they don't solve the problem because oversight doesn't work if accountability is weak.

And how do you wave a magic wand and make an institution that has walled itself off from oversight and accountability suddenly better? Because any politician that threatened to fire the cops would soon find themselves out of a job. Or dead.

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So you agree that getting rid of police altogether, having nobody to enforce laws with guns, and only have restorative justice and funding for poverty and mental illness is not enough for any system to prevent crime, and that some people wit guns are necessary as long as they are trained and held accountable?

I don't think anyone has suggested that you wouldn't need anyone to enforce laws against, say, violent offenders. Read my posts in this thread for crying out loud, I go on about that extensively.



Offline Queen LaQueefa

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #238 on: April 23, 2021, 06:19:01 pm »
And anyway your line about "restorative justice alone won't work" is dumb because literally no one is saying restorative justice is the only thing we should do.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CN-l3NJBZSS/

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OK, let's say that's true: who gives a s**t? The point you continue to ignore is that 90% of of what cops today has f**k all to do with "stopping people with guns" and can be offloaded to other services better equipped to do them. it's weird that you have such a dim view of cops and yet have completely internalized their propaganda about the role they play in our society.

I'm fine with offloading some tasks to people without guns.  I'm just saying that sometimes guys with guns are needed.

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And how do you wave a magic wand and make an institution that has walled itself off from oversight and accountability suddenly better? Because any politician that threatened to fire the cops would soon find themselves out of a job. Or dead.

I think we voters have to insist mayors and city councilors keep them accountable.  Break the unions, or whatever needs to be done.  We probably agree more than we disagree on this.
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #239 on: April 28, 2021, 08:58:19 am »
LOL what a joke.  Way to take everything I said out of context so you can virtue signal.  Your smug self-righteousness is noted.
I clearly articulated how and why it was a racist assumption and you can't own up to it. That's on you.