Author Topic: Defund the Police  (Read 9332 times)

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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #195 on: April 21, 2021, 09:03:50 am »
Another part of it is that cops, despite all the rhetoric that they're out there putting their lives on the line to serve and protect, think their lives are more valuable than any civilian, which is why they'd rather shoot than take a second to assess a situation. They even have a little saying about it!
Their jobs aren't even the deadliest.

Cops are ranked 22nd out of the 25 deadliest jobs in the US.

https://www.ishn.com/articles/112748-top-25-most-dangerous-jobs-in-the-united-states



Offline Black Dog

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #196 on: April 21, 2021, 09:52:56 am »
Columbus cop shoots 16 year old Black girl

It took about 10 seconds for the cop to get out of the car to shoot this kid. Now it's clear from the body cam that she was attacking another girl with a knife, but I'm not sure how firing four shots with the person being attacked in the line of fire was the best approach when he could have physically intervened, but again: it's shoot first and get away with it later.

Offline Queen LaQueefa

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #197 on: April 21, 2021, 02:42:31 pm »
This completely falls apart when you look at how many unarmed, compliant black people in the US and indigenous people in Canada have been murdered by cops over the years. The cops disproportionately escalate their response to violence when they're dealing with people who are not white. I'm sure some of the time they do this unconsciously but the perception of violence and risk is absolutely a racially biased phenomenon. This is what systemic racism means. It's not that individual cops are prejudice; it's that people's skin colour play a role into cops perception of risk whether they're personally aware of it or not.

Here's the stat database on police shootings in the US we can run ourselves:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police-shootings-2019/

In 2019 there were 424 white people shot and killed by police in the US.  Of those 424, 26 were unarmed, and of those 26 there were 19 who were not fleeing the scene at the time of being shot.

In the same year, 252 black people were shot and killed by the police, of those 252 there were 12 who were unarmed, and of those 12 there were 5 who were not fleeing the scene at the time.

Of those shot and killed by police, a higher proportion of those who were unarmed and not fleeing the scene were white.  However Black people make up only 13% of the US population, so a disproportionate amount of black people are getting shot in general.  But a disproportionate amount of blacks also make up those in jail ~50%, including ~50% of all murder convicts being black.  That could mean many things:  blacks commit more crime (due to poverty etc), or racial bias in policing and/or the justice system and/or lack of access to good lawyers due to poverty.

Anyways, it's likely true that cops escalate their response when dealing with black people, especially young black men, similar to how many white people are more nervous walking past a group of young black men late at night than a group of elderly white women, or even a group of elderly black women. That doesn't make it fair or right, but it's the reality of our perceptions and emotions I guess, and is unfortunately backed by generalized statistics of violent crime.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #198 on: April 21, 2021, 03:19:59 pm »
Here's the stat database on police shootings in the US we can run ourselves:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police-shootings-2019/

In 2019 there were 424 white people shot and killed by police in the US.  Of those 424, 26 were unarmed, and of those 26 there were 19 who were not fleeing the scene at the time of being shot.

In the same year, 252 black people were shot and killed by the police, of those 252 there were 12 who were unarmed, and of those 12 there were 5 who were not fleeing the scene at the time.

Of those shot and killed by police, a higher proportion of those who were unarmed and not fleeing the scene were white.  However Black people make up only 13% of the US population, so a disproportionate amount of black people are getting shot in general.  But a disproportionate amount of blacks also make up those in jail ~50%, including ~50% of all murder convicts being black.  That could mean many things:  blacks commit more crime (due to poverty etc), or racial bias in policing and/or the justice system and/or lack of access to good lawyers due to poverty.

Anyways, it's likely true that cops escalate their response when dealing with black people, especially young black men, similar to how many white people are more nervous walking past a group of young black men late at night than a group of elderly white women, or even a group of elderly black women. That doesn't make it fair or right, but it's the reality of our perceptions and emotions I guess, and is unfortunately backed by generalized statistics of violent crime.

It's more shoddy interpretation of statistics and poor assessment of risk. As a white male, I'm significantly more likely to be victimized by someone who looks like me than any random Black or Indigenous person.
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Offline Queen LaQueefa

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #199 on: April 21, 2021, 03:49:00 pm »
It's more shoddy interpretation of statistics and poor assessment of risk. As a white male, I'm significantly more likely to be victimized by someone who looks like me than any random Black or Indigenous person.

If you were sitting in your car alone at night in an empty parking lot would you be more weary of a group of elderly white women who came up to your car window or a group of young black men?
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #200 on: April 21, 2021, 04:26:31 pm »
If you were sitting in your car alone at night in an empty parking lot would you be more weary of a group of elderly white women who came up to your car window or a group of young black men?

Speaking of not understanding statistics...
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Offline Queen LaQueefa

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #201 on: April 21, 2021, 05:06:15 pm »
Speaking of not understanding statistics...

That's not an answer to my question.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #202 on: April 22, 2021, 12:14:32 pm »
That's not an answer to my question.

Statistically, neither is very likely to happen.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #203 on: April 22, 2021, 12:55:30 pm »
Statistically, neither is very likely to happen.

Cuz Graham doesn’t own a car?
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #204 on: April 22, 2021, 12:59:49 pm »
Cuz Graham doesn’t own a car?

Because gangs of old ladies don't roam the streets at night and the place I live is like 80% white.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #205 on: April 22, 2021, 01:29:27 pm »
Extremely good breakdown here of why "better training" or "more accountability" of police isn't enough.

Quote
Politicians, these big city mayors, have embraced and accepted that they’re going to solve their political problems through police, in ways that allow them to avoid any challenges to those local economic elites that are driving these neoliberal transformations. When there is a challenge to the abusiveness of policing, the response can’t interfere with those economic arrangements that are at the center of their power. So instead they generate a whole series of symbolic interventions that are designed to be incapable of addressing the problem substantively.

Seriously read the whole thing.
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Offline Queen LaQueefa

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #206 on: April 22, 2021, 01:53:51 pm »
Statistically, neither is very likely to happen.

You're dodging the question and refuse to answer because you know the answer doesn't support your narrative.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #207 on: April 22, 2021, 01:58:38 pm »
Because gangs of old ladies don't roam the streets at night and the place I live is like 80% white.

You can make up all sorts of fantasy scenarios to support your narrative.... 
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Offline Queen LaQueefa

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #208 on: April 22, 2021, 02:02:45 pm »
Extremely good breakdown here of why "better training" or "more accountability" of police isn't enough.

Seriously read the whole thing.

I totally agree.  Ultimately the fault is with the mayors and city councilors who turn a blind eye to abuse of power.  If cops abuse their power they are accountable to their sergeants who are their supervisors.  These sergeants are accountable to the Chief of Police.  The Chief's boss is the mayor and the city council.  If everyone in the chain of command turns a blind eye people can get away with things.  Everyone is covering for the next guy and nobody really cares.

I worked at a job where we served the public.  When one of my colleagues did something wrong against a client the client would ask for the supervisor.  The client would complain to the supervisor, but all the supervisors would ALWAYS cover for the employee.  They'd NEVER admit anyone did something wrong even if they did.  It was actually disturbing to me.  It was the same "protect your own" mentality.  There was no accountability.  The client could file a complaint in writing but it never did anything.  There's no justice.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #209 on: April 22, 2021, 02:07:53 pm »
I'm fairly on board with the idea that the police are a flawed institution that will never accept any real accountability or reform.  The part I have a hard time wrapping my head around is how a world without the police would be safer for me or for the majority of the population.   If we disband the police, what happens afterwards?

The people who want to get rid of police and prisons offer this notion of having those institutions replaced with a "community driven" "restorative justice" process where "community stakeholders" would bring the victim and offender together in some sort of mediative process where they would share their feelings and arrive at a mutually beneficial resolution where everybody is "made whole" again and nobody has so go to jail. And it all magically happens without any use of force by the state.  Money the state spends on police and prisons would be spent on social programs that eradicate poverty and mental illness. It all sounds wildly idealistic and improbable to me.

There's a new buzzword going around called "transformative justice", which as far as I can tell is exactly the same as "restorative justice" except that it's "victim centered" and instead of "making whole" the victim and offender, they are instead "transformed" into better versions of themselves. It all sounds like fantasy.

 -k
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