Author Topic: Defund the Police  (Read 575 times)

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Offline eyeball

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2021, 04:18:05 pm »
Not as punishment, for enlightenment.
What am I missing? Police are as necessary as firemen and other first responders. I certainly don't subscribe to abolishing any of them I'd simply like to develop a psychiatric first responder component that's integrated with police departments.

Offline wilber

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2021, 04:22:53 pm »
What am I missing? Police are as necessary as firemen and other first responders. I certainly don't subscribe to abolishing any of them I'd simply like to develop a psychiatric first responder component that's integrated with police departments.
OK, I'm sure most police wouldn't have a problem with that.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2021, 04:26:06 pm »
That drugs weren't a factor in the crimes against myself? Again, pretty sure.

I am not a drug user myself. I have never had any in my possession. So these people weren't robbing me to "get my stash".

 The guy that broke in was someone I had previously met. He was not some "street junky". And when my identity was stolen, the people took out credit in my name to buy things like TVs.

I have no problem believing that the "war on drugs" is a waste of time, and that drug laws should be lightened up. But I doubt very much whether you can trace the majority of crimes like robbery or fraud to "Well, they only did it because drugs were illegal"

I bet a lot of petty robbery is related to addiction and poverty. And there's also a lot of organized crime involvement in identity theft rings and fencing stolen goods as well as drugs so I'm not sure you can disentangle this knot.

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(For the record, in my case no arrest was ever made for any of those crimes I mentioned. In my case the police were completely useless, and its probably that way in a lot of other cases too. Again, I have absolutely no problem with police reforms... maybe if they weren't spending money enforcing drug laws they might have caught the people who committed crimes against me. But I do recognize the difference between "Lets get the police focused on stuff that matters" and "Lets abolish them".

Again: abolition is an acknowledgement that the institution as currently constructed is beyond reform. So even if you abolish police and create a different kind of police, their training, equipment, role and responsibilities would be significantly different from what we have now.

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Well, parking violations involve vehicles that are stationary, so they're pretty easy to identify and "ticket". Moving violations (impaired driving, dangerous driving, etc.) involve cars that are, well, moving. Kind of hard to "catch" them in that situation unless whomever is enforcing the law is in a vehicle themselves. Plus, since the charges are against the driver (rather than the car owner) you need to actually apprehend them to identify them.

What about check stops?

I mean you could have a designated "traffic enforcement agency" that does what the cops do to enforce traffic laws, only without the "pulling people over for broken taillights to justify vehicle searches" part.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 04:29:35 pm by Black Dog »

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #48 on: January 12, 2021, 04:27:28 pm »
When have you had either?

Huh?

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Then hire more police.

If the "wild west" isn't actually any wilder than the other parts of town, why would you need more cops?

Incidentally, even as police budgets increase, the actual number of cops has been declining for decades along with the crime rate.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 04:34:25 pm by Black Dog »

Offline eyeball

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #49 on: January 12, 2021, 04:30:56 pm »
OK, I'm sure most police wouldn't have a problem with that.
To be perfectly honest I'm surprised they're not requesting and even demanding it in some places. There's also probably good reason to believe more suicides amongst police could be reduced by introducing a greater psychiatric element to policing.  I have a nephew in the RCMP and a son with schizophrenia, we've had this discussion amongst ourselves and my nephew thought having the 'cop talk' with our son was a reasonable thing to do given the numbers of schizophrenics that have been injured and killed in encounters with police.

Offline wilber

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #50 on: January 12, 2021, 06:51:35 pm »
Huh?

If the "wild west" isn't actually any wilder than the other parts of town, why would you need more cops?

Incidentally, even as police budgets increase, the actual number of cops has been declining for decades along with the crime rate.

You said you wanted them to patrol more, be more proactive. They don't have the bodies.
What service do you know of that costs less than it did a few years ago.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline wilber

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #51 on: January 12, 2021, 06:54:43 pm »
To be perfectly honest I'm surprised they're not requesting and even demanding it in some places. There's also probably good reason to believe more suicides amongst police could be reduced by introducing a greater psychiatric element to policing.  I have a nephew in the RCMP and a son with schizophrenia, we've had this discussion amongst ourselves and my nephew thought having the 'cop talk' with our son was a reasonable thing to do given the numbers of schizophrenics that have been injured and killed in encounters with police.

I agree but asking for help doesn't come naturally in a cops don't cry culture that has existed since forever and is hard to change.

Families were given a copy of this book when the kid graduated from the JI

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/617615.Cops_Don_t_Cry
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 06:59:44 pm by wilber »
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline eyeball

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #52 on: January 12, 2021, 07:19:30 pm »
I agree but asking for help doesn't come naturally in a cops don't cry culture that has existed since forever and is hard to change.

Families were given a copy of this book when the kid graduated from the JI

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/617615.Cops_Don_t_Cry
I can't help but wonder how much of that cop culture is stoked by a society that appears to place a premium on cracking down and being tough on crime.

Offline wilber

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #53 on: January 12, 2021, 08:38:57 pm »
I can't help but wonder how much of that cop culture is stoked by a society that appears to place a premium on cracking down and being tough on crime.

I don't know. There are shitty people in this world and someone has to deal with them. It is a paramilitary organization after all. It has to be.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline eyeball

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #54 on: January 12, 2021, 09:21:37 pm »
I don't know. There are shitty people in this world and someone has to deal with them. It is a paramilitary organization after all. It has to be.
Paramilitary? That would be highly incongruous in the village I live in and probably outside the very meanest streets in Canada. How has the militarization of police forces in the US worked out?  As with COVID in the US, Canada has the benefit of living next door to the most graphic example of what we don't need to do and what path not to take.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2021, 01:53:08 am by eyeball »
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Offline wilber

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #55 on: January 12, 2021, 10:10:26 pm »
Paramilitary? That would be highly incongruous in the village I live in and probably outside even the very meanest streets in Canada. How has the militarization of police forces in the US worked out?  As with COVID in the US, Canada has the benefit of living next door to the most graphic example of what we don't need to do and what path not to take.

Paramilitary because the next step in law enforcement is the real military.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline eyeball

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #56 on: January 13, 2021, 01:56:57 am »
Paramilitary because the next step in law enforcement is the real military.
Except that paramilitary is a term that describes an unofficial military organization.  I doubt that would work.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #57 on: January 13, 2021, 09:39:46 am »
You said you wanted them to patrol more, be more proactive. They don't have the bodies.

No I didn't. In fact, I said the exact opposite:

Now, certainly people will still get murdered or assaulted even in this world, which is why I think having a small and highly professional type of body that is tasked with investigating serious crimes would still be necessary, but the cop on the street who drives around hassling the poors would be hopefully rendered obsolete.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2021, 09:50:36 am »
I don't know. There are shitty people in this world and someone has to deal with them. It is a paramilitary organization after all. It has to be.

No it doesn't.

It's worthwhile to look at the history of policing to see why it is the way it is and what purpose it serves.
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Offline the_squid

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #59 on: January 13, 2021, 12:30:39 pm »
Cops do a great job, if you’re white.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5861706
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Whenever Kenrick McRae uses his car, he does a thorough spot check first. Before he gets in, he walks around the car, even testing the brake lights by putting a brick on the pedal to verify that the lights are on.

"I always want to be on the right side of the law," he told CBC's The Doc Project radio program.

But no matter how scrupulous he is, McRae, who is Black, can't seem to avoid being stopped by Montreal police. He's been pulled over dozens of times, he says, some months, as many as 15.

If you’re black, then not so much....

How many times have I been pulled over seemingly randomly?  Never. 
Do I need to walk around my car and test that everything works before leaving my driveway because I don’t want to give the cops any reason to pull me over?  No, never.

THIS is exactly the kind of thing that needs to stop and why “defund the police” is an excellent slogan.  **** the racist cops and **** their enablers....  each and every one of their colleagues who don’t push for things like this to change are just as bad as they are. 

$486 dollar ticket for having an open container of booze in the car when he was taking his bottles to the recyclers.

Smash the entire thing and rebuild it.  Fire every single officer once by one systematically across each police force and re-hire some of them back.  Start removing the racist ones and force them to PROVE they had a reason to pull over each and every person they pulled over that day.

I didn’t want to give my anecdotal experiences, as anecdotes aren’t really that useful, but these are interesting. 

I now a guy who is black that refuses to get a licence and drive a car because of how he has been treated in places in Canada when he has driven.

I know another guy, he’s S. American living in small town BC...  they often block the only road in and out to look for drunks, etc ...   Depending on the reason for the roadblock, most cars just get waved through....  never his.  There is ALWAYS a reason to pull him over “randomly”.