Author Topic: Defund the Police  (Read 1585 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Black Dog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 566
  • Location: Deathbridge
Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2021, 02:17:29 pm »
NYPD Anti-Discrimination Chief Retires Before Suspension for ‘Vile, Racist' Messages

Quote
The head of the NYPD's workplace discrimination office has opted to retire days after having been suspended without pay for 30 days after investigators say he posted hateful messages to a website where cops air grievances anonymously.

Deputy Inspector James Kobel was relieved of his command in early November after he was accused of penning attacks on Black and Jewish people, women, members of the LGBTQ community and others for more than a year using the pseudonym “Clouseau," a reference to the bumbling French detective in the “Pink Panther" films.
...
In messages posted on the website, “Clouseau" referred to Bronx District Attorney Darcel Clark as a “gap-tooth wildebeest,” ridiculed Public Advocate Jumaane Williams for having Tourette's syndrome, called former President Barack Obama a “Muslim savage” and Mayor Bill de Blasio’s son, Dante, a “brillohead.” All of them are Black.



Online wilber

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6918
Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2021, 02:39:24 pm »
I dunno, I've included facts and statistics and could post more about how little cops actually do, but I wouldn't want your kid to look bad by association and hurt your feelings.

You did? Where? You also understand that cases that involve criminal charges require hours of paper work on the part of officers, dotting I's and crossing T's to make sure Crown will actually approve a charge and then it won't get thrown out later on some sort of technicality or misstep by the officer.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline segnosaur

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 764
Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2021, 02:42:36 pm »
First off, defunding police goes hand in hand with a lot of other social reforms such as decriminalizing sex work, drugs, homelessness, and mental illness and putting resources into communities to address these problems. So right away the idea is to eliminate the conditions that create crime in the first place.
I have no problem decriminalization prostitution, liberalizing drug laws, etc. And yes, that would greatly reduce the number of arrests.

But, even if you make those things completely legal, even if you eliminate all laws dealing with "victimless" crimes (prostitution, homelessness, drugs/alcohol), you have still only eliminated ~40% of all arrests. (That's a big chunk, and its certainly worth exploring, but its certainly not the majority. And that's being generous, because the statistics contain a large number of "other" crimes that i am lumping in here.) On the other hand, ~60% of all arrests were not victimless (this includes assault/murder, fraud in various forms, theft/robbery, etc.). 

See: https://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/ucr.asp?table_in=1
(These are American figures... tried to find the Canadian equivalent, but could not. But given the similarity in our laws, we probably would have similar numbers, although probably fewer drug arrests due to our legalization efforts.)
Quote
Now, certainly people will still get murdered or assaulted even in this world, which is why I think having a small and highly professional type of body that is tasked with investigating serious crimes would still be necessary
Which sounds a lot like having a police force, you're just giving it a different name.
Quote
but the cop on the street who drives around hassling the poors would be hopefully rendered obsolete.
What about a 'cop on the street' which doesn't drive around hassling poor people, but still responds to things like "robberies in progress"? Or are you going to only go after crimes that have already occurred, without dealing with crimes that are in progress?

"Sorry you had all your stuff stolen. Our investigation showed that the burglars were in your house for 2 hours. We could have stopped them, but we don't do that sort of thing".

Online Black Dog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 566
  • Location: Deathbridge
Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2021, 02:47:46 pm »
You did? Where? You also understand that cases that involve criminal charges require hours of paper work on the part of officers, dotting I's and crossing T's to make sure Crown will actually approve a charge and then it won't get thrown out later on some sort of technicality or misstep by the officer.

Oh ****, they have to do paperwork? Whoah that changes everything!

And for the record, the success of a prosecution or whether a charge sticks has nothing to do with clearance rates.

"The clearance rate represents the proportion of criminal incidents solved by the police. Police can clear an incident by charge or by means other than the laying of a charge. For an incident to be cleared by charge, at least one accused must have been identified and either a charge has been laid, or recommended to be laid, against this individual in connection with the incident."



Online Black Dog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 566
  • Location: Deathbridge
Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2021, 02:58:06 pm »
I have no problem decriminalization prostitution, liberalizing drug laws, etc. And yes, that would greatly reduce the number of arrests.

But, even if you make those things completely legal, even if you eliminate all laws dealing with "victimless" crimes (prostitution, homelessness, drugs/alcohol), you have still only eliminated ~40% of all arrests. (That's a big chunk, and its certainly worth exploring, but its certainly not the majority. And that's being generous, because the statistics contain a large number of "other" crimes that i am lumping in here.) On the other hand, ~60% of all arrests were not victimless (this includes assault/murder, fraud in various forms, theft/robbery, etc.). 

That's not true. Decriminalizing or even legalizing drugs, for example, means you're cutting down on violent crimes (assaults, robberies, murders) associated with the illicit drug trade.

Quote
Which sounds a lot like having a police force, you're just giving it a different name.

Call it what you will, the point is it wouldn't function the same way as our police currently do.

Quote
What about a 'cop on the street' which doesn't drive around hassling poor people, but still responds to things like "robberies in progress"? Or are you going to only go after crimes that have already occurred, without dealing with crimes that are in progress?

"Sorry you had all your stuff stolen. Our investigation showed that the burglars were in your house for 2 hours. We could have stopped them, but we don't do that sort of thing".

You do realize that's like the vast majority of policing now is just showing up after the fact.
Agree Agree x 1 View List

Offline the_squid

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3769
Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2021, 03:04:37 pm »
There also needs to be more use of technology to help with patrolling traffic laws to greatly reduce the police presence needed and to get rid of the arbitrariness of traffic enforcement.

Red light cameras on EVERY stoplight in busy areas.  Photo radar, with warning signs so that people actually slow down.  The goal should be accident reduction, not fine generation. 

I think this would greatly free up cops to do other things, or be gotten rid of if they’re unnecessary. 

Online Black Dog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 566
  • Location: Deathbridge
Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2021, 03:10:29 pm »
There also needs to be more use of technology to help with patrolling traffic laws to greatly reduce the police presence needed and to get rid of the arbitrariness of traffic enforcement.

Red light cameras on EVERY stoplight in busy areas.  Photo radar, with warning signs so that people actually slow down.  The goal should be accident reduction, not fine generation. 

I think this would greatly free up cops to do other things, or be gotten rid of if they’re unnecessary.

Are photo radar and red light cameras effective at reducing accidents? I'm not familiar with the literature on that.

Online wilber

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6918
Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2021, 03:16:49 pm »
That's not true. Decriminalizing or even legalizing drugs, for example, means you're cutting down on violent crimes (assaults, robberies, murders) associated with the illicit drug trade.

Call it what you will, the point is it wouldn't function the same way as our police currently do.

You do realize that's like the vast majority of policing now is just showing up after the fact.

The police don't make the laws, the people you elect make them and then expect the police to enforce them.

You want it both ways, you want police out of your life and at the same time be pro active, Make up your mind.
The Charter places strict limits on how pro active police can be.

Some of it is also personnel. There is large rural area on the west side of our city the police call the Wild West. Not because it is any wilder than anywhere else, they just don't have the personnel to patrol it.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Online wilber

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6918
Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2021, 03:21:30 pm »
Are photo radar and red light cameras effective at reducing accidents? I'm not familiar with the literature on that.

I'm not a huge fan of photo radar for speed enforcement unless it restricted to high crash locations and the threshold is set fairly high.
Considering the number of crashes at intersections, I think red light cameras are a great idea. Anyone who enters an intersection on a red deserves a ticket.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline segnosaur

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 764
Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2021, 03:30:27 pm »
Quote
I have no problem decriminalization prostitution, liberalizing drug laws, etc. And yes, that would greatly reduce the number of arrests.

But, even if you make those things completely legal, even if you eliminate all laws dealing with "victimless" crimes (prostitution, homelessness, drugs/alcohol), you have still only eliminated ~40% of all arrests. (That's a big chunk, and its certainly worth exploring, but its certainly not the majority. And that's being generous, because the statistics contain a large number of "other" crimes that i am lumping in here.) On the other hand, ~60% of all arrests were not victimless (this includes assault/murder, fraud in various forms, theft/robbery, etc.).
That's not true. Decriminalizing or even legalizing drugs, for example, means you're cutting down on violent crimes (assaults, robberies, murders) associated with the illicit drug trade.
Most drug arrests were for simple possession.

And, I should say, I have been the victim of both assault and robbery (separate incidents), as well as identity theft. In none of these cases were drugs an overriding factor in the crime. They were criminals who decided not to follow the general rules of society.

Quote
You do realize that's like the vast majority of policing now is just showing up after the fact.
Yes, the cops probably don't "catch them in the act" very often. But that doesn't necessarily mean that its a smart idea to totally give up the capacity to try such a rapid response.

And just out of curiosity, how exactly is your "get rid of cops and only investigate crimes after they're committed" supposed to work for things like impaired or dangerous driving? After all, if you don't catch them in the act, its rather difficult to build a case against them.

Online Black Dog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 566
  • Location: Deathbridge
Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2021, 03:32:30 pm »
The police don't make the laws, the people you elect make them and then expect the police to enforce them.

You want it both ways, you want police out of your life and at the same time be pro active, Make up your mind.
The Charter places strict limits on how pro active police can be.

There's no contradiction between wanting fewer police interactions for **** like open container violations or jaywalking or sleeping on a park bench and ensuring someone is able to actually investigate violent crimes.

Quote
Some of it is also personnel. There is large rural area on the west side of our city the police call the Wild West. Not because it is any wilder than anywhere else, they just don't have the personnel to patrol it.

Doesn't that say something about the value of patrolling?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 03:43:54 pm by Black Dog »

Offline segnosaur

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 764
Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2021, 03:39:54 pm »
Are photo radar and red light cameras effective at reducing accidents? I'm not familiar with the literature on that.
I think the evidence shows that no, they are not.

From: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3861844/
For the 26 mile experimental camera containing segment of interstate...speed cameras did not statistically contribute to an increase or decrease in the number of MVC.

There are some people who think it might reduce the severity of actions (because cars are going slower).

And from: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/red-light-cameras-may-not-make-streets-safer/#:~:text=Evidence%20clearly%20shows%20that%20camera,contradictory%20effects%20on%20traffic%20safety.
...we examined all police-recorded traffic accidents for three large Texas cities over a 12-year period...We found no evidence that red light cameras improve public safety.
...
Evidence clearly shows that camera programs are effective at decreasing the number of vehicles running red lights....However, cameras can have contradictory effects on traffic safety....But the number of accidents from stopping at a red light – such as rear-end accidents – is likely to increase.


So, red light cameras decrease the number of 'T-bone' collisions, but that's offset by an increase in the number of rear-end collisions.
ETA: Of course, even if it doesn't make things safer, there still might be justification in using red-light cameras if it (for example) improves traffic flow.

Now, those are only 2 studies... there may be others that show a more positive effect, so I could be convinced otherwise with the right evidence.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 03:41:27 pm by segnosaur »

Online Black Dog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 566
  • Location: Deathbridge
Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2021, 03:43:31 pm »
Most drug arrests were for simple possession.

And, I should say, I have been the victim of both assault and robbery (separate incidents), as well as identity theft. In none of these cases were drugs an overriding factor in the crime. They were criminals who decided not to follow the general rules of society.

Do you know that for certain? Do you know what their life circumstances were to the point they committed their crimes?

Quote
Yes, the cops probably don't "catch them in the act" very often. But that doesn't necessarily mean that its a smart idea to totally give up the capacity to try such a rapid response.

And just out of curiosity, how exactly is your "get rid of cops and only investigate crimes after they're committed" supposed to work for things like impaired or dangerous driving? After all, if you don't catch them in the act, its rather difficult to build a case against them.

How do most cities enforce parking violations? Is there a reason that model wouldn't work for other traffic control issues?

Again, the question that should be asked before asking "what would you do without the police?" is "what do we actually need the police for?"

Offline segnosaur

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 764
Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2021, 04:14:21 pm »
Quote
Most drug arrests were for simple possession.

And, I should say, I have been the victim of both assault and robbery (separate incidents), as well as identity theft. In none of these cases were drugs an overriding factor in the crime. They were criminals who decided not to follow the general rules of society.
Do you know that for certain?
Do I know what for certain?

That most drug arrests for for simple possession? Pretty sure, yeah:

From: https://drugpolicy.org/issues/drug-war-statistics
Number of arrests in 2018 in the U.S. for drug law violations: 1,654,282
Number of drug arrests that were for possession only: 1,429,299


That drugs weren't a factor in the crimes against myself? Again, pretty sure.

I am not a drug user myself. I have never had any in my possession. So these people weren't robbing me to "get my stash". The guy that broke in was someone I had previously met. He was not some "street junky". And when my identity was stolen, the people took out credit in my name to buy things like TVs.

I have no problem believing that the "war on drugs" is a waste of time, and that drug laws should be lightened up. But I doubt very much whether you can trace the majority of crimes like robbery or fraud to "Well, they only did it because drugs were illegal".

(For the record, in my case no arrest was ever made for any of those crimes I mentioned. In my case the police were completely useless, and its probably that way in a lot of other cases too. Again, I have absolutely no problem with police reforms... maybe if they weren't spending money enforcing drug laws they might have caught the people who committed crimes against me. But I do recognize the difference between "Lets get the police focused on stuff that matters" and "Lets abolish them".
Quote
How do most cities enforce parking violations? Is there a reason that model wouldn't work for other traffic control issues?
Well, parking violations involve vehicles that are stationary, so they're pretty easy to identify and "ticket".

Moving violations (impaired driving, dangerous driving, etc.) involve cars that are, well, moving. Kind of hard to "catch" them in that situation unless whomever is enforcing the law is in a vehicle themselves. Plus, since the charges are against the driver (rather than the car owner) you need to actually apprehend them to identify them.

Online wilber

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6918
Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2021, 04:15:27 pm »
There's no contradiction between wanting fewer police interactions for **** like open container violations or jaywalking or sleeping on a park bench and ensuring someone is able to actually investigate violent crimes.



When have you had either?

Quote
Doesn't that say something about the value of patrolling?

Then hire more police.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC