Author Topic: Defund the Police  (Read 1585 times)

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Offline kimmy

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2021, 10:28:34 pm »
All in the US.

Yes, its an american show.

But, Canada does have similar issues (although not always to the same degree). We have qualified immunity. We do have a similar lack of health care professionals and other specialists to assist police. And racism does exist.

Not to mention the same "Blue code of silence" mentality. We learned during the Braidwood Inquiry how far the RCMP were willing to go to protect their own. We have the same problem with it being very hard to remove problem officers.

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Offline kimmy

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2021, 10:58:51 pm »
New thread for discussion of abolton vs reform.

Is anybody really advocating for abolition?

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Offline the_squid

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2021, 10:59:30 pm »
I thought that John Oliver video was excellent and informative.  I have to point out the part where he talks about the slogan "Defund The Police" and talks about Tucker Carlson misrepresenting it and scaremongering with the idea that people are talking about eliminating the police entirely.  I mean, no **** people find "Defund The Police" alarming.  Of course people assume it means people are talking about eliminating the police entirely.  It's a terrible slogan that invites people to assume you're talking about eliminating the police.  Obviously people were alarmed. Obviously it made people hesitant about what was being advocated for.  If you have to choose a bumper-sticker length sound-bite to sum up your plan, you should try to pick a sound-bite that doesn't make average people think you're a wing-nut.

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The only ones actually wanting to defund police are libertarians.

Offline wilber

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2021, 11:15:03 pm »
Is anybody really advocating for abolition?

 -k
It's one of those unfortunate slogans which polarize people. Refund the Police would have been much less antagonistic as well as more accurate.

Black Lives Matter is another one because it gets the All Lives Matter response. Black Lives Also Matter is the real point.
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Offline segnosaur

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2021, 10:01:03 am »
The only ones actually wanting to defund police are libertarians.
I don't even think that's true.

Libertarians are not anarchists... Libertarians still believe in having some government services, and a basic police force is one of those things. (They may want more limits put on what the cops can do, but they don't want to eliminate them all together.)

Offline segnosaur

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2021, 10:06:23 am »
It's one of those unfortunate slogans which polarize people. Refund the Police would have been much less antagonistic as well as more accurate.
To me, "Refund the police" sounds a bit... confusing. Sounds like you sold something to the cops, but they want their money back.

In another thread, I suggested "Demilitarize the Police" as an alternative. It is far less catchy than "Defund the Police", but I think it better captures what exactly the protesters are trying to do.

And even better, it would be less scary to certain people. Even the most nervous white suburbanite who might worry that "Defund the police means the cops won't be there if I get robbed" will probably agree that "I want my cops to act like police, not like soldiers".

Online Black Dog

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2021, 10:29:25 am »
You really don't know much about what police do. You should ask for a ride along with your local police force and find out.

I've done ride alongs when I worked as a journalist. They were boring for the most part except when two separate patrol cars converged to hassle some teens making out in a car in a field and stopped to pick up a white drunk kid and take him home (a trip that probably would have had a different outcome if the kid was Black or Indigenous).

But you keep saying "oh you don't know what police do" so why don't you enlighten us?

Is anybody really advocating for abolition?

 -k

Yes.

It's one of those unfortunate slogans which polarize people. Refund the Police would have been much less antagonistic as well as more accurate.

No, we mean defund the police.

I think it's worth asking why this is such a polarizing slogan. I think the idea that we'd collapse into anarchy without the police is largely a byproduct of decades of nonstop copaganda with a big dash of racism ("if you get rid of the police *those people* will be able to do whatever they want!").

« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 10:54:43 am by Black Dog »

Offline wilber

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2021, 12:05:15 pm »
I've done ride alongs when I worked as a journalist. They were boring for the most part except when two separate patrol cars converged to hassle some teens making out in a car in a field and stopped to pick up a white drunk kid and take him home (a trip that probably would have had a different outcome if the kid was Black or Indigenous).

But you keep saying "oh you don't know what police do" so why don't you enlighten us?

Yes.

No, we mean defund the police.

I think it's worth asking why this is such a polarizing slogan. I think the idea that we'd collapse into anarchy without the police is largely a byproduct of decades of nonstop copaganda with a big dash of racism ("if you get rid of the police *those people* will be able to do whatever they want!").

I did one on a warm Friday night. It was few years ago so I don't remember all of it but I do remember two drug deals gone wrong, one involving a knife, hunting for a missing kid found by another car, one domestic dispute resulting in the man going to jail, one incident of chasing down a person who was seen waving a gun out of the window of a car. That was between 8 PM and 2 AM. At that point things had died down enough that the officer I was with could start to enter the notes he had taken during the evening into his computer. so I went home even though the shift didn't end until 7 AM.

Full disclosure:

My son is a 15 year veteran of our local police force. As far as being an uneducated thug, he was an honours student and voted top athlete in high school. Before he became a cop he took two years of criminology and psychology at university and spent four years as a victim services volunteer. Three out of the five officers on his course had degrees. He has been a patrol officer, including bicycle squad, ERT and is now on the drug squad. He spent years on patrol in the city centre and knows many of the street people by name. Last summer when we met him and his two little daughters at a downtown park for ice cream, a couple of them came up to say hi.

I know two officers who have committed suicide, one of them was the best friend of our next door neighbour who mentored him to become a police officer and became a good friend of ours, so yes, I do worry about the impact the job might have on his mental health.

With all due respect, you are full of ****.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 12:30:56 pm by wilber »
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Online Black Dog

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2021, 12:20:36 pm »
I did one on a warm Friday night. It was few years ago so I don't remember all of it but I do remember two drug deals gone wrong, one involving a knife, hunting for a missing kid found by another car, one domestic dispute resulting in the man going to jail, one incident of chasing down a person who was seen waving a gun out of the window of a car. That was between 8 PM and 2 AM. At that point things had died down enough that the officer I was with could start to enter the notes he had taken during the evening into his computer. so I went home even though the shift didn't end until 7 AM.

Full disclosure:

My son is a 15 year veteran of our local police force. As far as being an uneducated thug, he was an honours student,  and voted top athlete in high school. Before he became a cop he took two years of criminology and psychology at university and spent four years as a victim services volunteer. Three out of the five officers on his course had degrees. He has been a patrol officer, including bicycle squad, ERT and is now on the drug squad. He spent years on patrol in the city centre and knows many of he street people by name. Last summer when we met him and his two little daughters at a downtown park for ice cream, a couple of them came up to say hi.

I know two officers who have committed suicide, one of them was the best friend of our next door neighbour who mentored him to become a police officer and became a good friend of ours, so yes, I do worry about the impact the job might have on his mental health.

With all due respect, you are full of ****.

I'm sorry what's the point of all this and what does it prove, exactly? That not all cops are bad? Because that's not rally relevant.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 12:26:08 pm by Black Dog »

Offline segnosaur

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2021, 12:26:45 pm »
Quote
Is anybody really advocating for abolition?
Yes.
...
I think it's worth asking why this is such a polarizing slogan. I think the idea that we'd collapse into anarchy without the police is largely a byproduct of decades of nonstop copaganda with a big dash of racism ("if you get rid of the police *those people* will be able to do whatever they want!").
Do you honestly think society would be better off if there were absolutely no police? No beat cops, no detectives. Nobody at all to investigate murders or sexual assaults. Nobody to respond to on-going robberies?

Offline wilber

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2021, 12:31:32 pm »
I'm sorry what's the point of all this and what does it prove, exactly? That not all cops are bad? Because that's not rally relevant.

You asked, I told you.
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Online Black Dog

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2021, 01:29:38 pm »
You asked, I told you.

No, no you didn't. You gave a couple of anecdotes which aren't necessarily representative of anything.

Obviously your personal bias here means your unlikely to have a rational take on this issue.

Online Black Dog

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2021, 01:38:21 pm »
Do you honestly think society would be better off if there were absolutely no police? No beat cops, no detectives. Nobody at all to investigate murders or sexual assaults. Nobody to respond to on-going robberies?

First off, defunding police goes hand in hand with a lot of other social reforms such as decriminalizing sex work, drugs, homelessness, and mental illness and putting resources into communities to address these problems. So right away the idea is to eliminate the conditions that create crime in the first place.

Now, certainly people will still get murdered or assaulted even in this world, which is why I think having a small and highly professional type of body that is tasked with investigating serious crimes would still be necessary, but the cop on the street who drives around hassling the poors would be hopefully rendered obsolete.

Offline wilber

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2021, 01:53:07 pm »
No, no you didn't. You gave a couple of anecdotes which aren't necessarily representative of anything.

Obviously your personal bias here means your unlikely to have a rational take on this issue.

Right back attacha good buddy. What do think you have been spouting?
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Online Black Dog

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Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2021, 02:15:34 pm »
Right back attacha good buddy. What do think you have been spouting?

I dunno, I've included facts and statistics and could post more about how little cops actually do, but I wouldn't want your kid to look bad by association and hurt your feelings.