Author Topic: Defund the Police  (Read 1475 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Black Dog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 557
  • Location: Deathbridge
Defund the Police
« on: January 11, 2021, 02:49:43 pm »
New thread for discussion of abolton vs reform.

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter


Offline Gorgeous Graham

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5887
Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2021, 04:06:16 pm »
That's a feature of policing not a bug.

You're saying it can't change?  That's nonsense.  You simply have to build a system that doesn't tolerate it.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline MH

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8394
Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2021, 04:19:06 pm »
You're saying it can't change?  That's nonsense.  You simply have to build a system that doesn't tolerate it.

I'm a fan of building things.  But also tearing down things that have no use after the new thing is built.

Offline Black Dog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 557
  • Location: Deathbridge
Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2021, 04:20:32 pm »
You're saying it can't change?  That's nonsense.  You simply have to build a system that doesn't tolerate it.

You can't do that until you dismantle the existing system. And yes part of that is reallocating responsibilities for things currently handled by police to different bodies, but part of it is also reassessing the actual role of police. Because most of the stuff cops do isn't fighting crime or preserving public safety in any meaningful way, but protecting property and preserving social hierarchies and they can't do that without the tacit approval to commit violence against citizens.

Offline segnosaur

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 764
Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2021, 06:50:50 pm »
(copied from the other thread)
Quote
"Defund the police".

Having more cops that can actually help society instead of harm is a good thing.  Unfortunately a lot of cops are under-educated a-holes who are unaccountable.
Here is the problem...

Improved training and standards of conduct are not a bad thing. But, in my opinion, the type of skills needed by a policeman differ from those of (lets say) a mental health professional that I don't think its relevant to expect that simply improving police training would allow them to handle things as well as other specialists. So, by all means, make sure police are better trained. Make sure they have better standards of conduct. But instead of keeping 100 cops on the force, society might be better to cut it down to 90, and then hire 10 psychologists/outreach coordinators/etc. Cops can concentrate on what they're best at, and leave stuff that they're not good at to other people.
 

Offline segnosaur

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 764
Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2021, 06:59:57 pm »
(copied from the other thread)
Quote
Except you can't do any of those reforms until you actually defund or abolish the police as we know it.
At this point we're probably going to start splitting hairs when you talk about how you "abolish the police".

Fire everyone, and start hiring an all new force from scratch? Then you have a significant time period when you have no police protection for a few months/years while the new hires get up to scratch.

I have heard of cities that have "technically" fired their police forces, but created a brand new force at the same time, just transferring officers over to the new force (except for possibly the bad ones), but then you're not actually "abolishing" the police.

In my opinion, instead of worrying about defunding/abolishing the police, they simply need to get rid of police unions (or curtail their activities so that they concentrate on employment rights). The problem is that the unions have gotten so powerful that they can influence policy, which allows abuses to continue.
Agree Agree x 1 View List

Offline wilber

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6907
Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2021, 08:10:34 pm »
You can't do that until you dismantle the existing system. And yes part of that is reallocating responsibilities for things currently handled by police to different bodies, but part of it is also reassessing the actual role of police. Because most of the stuff cops do isn't fighting crime or preserving public safety in any meaningful way, but protecting property and preserving social hierarchies and they can't do that without the tacit approval to commit violence against citizens.

You really don't know much about what police do. You should ask for a ride along with your local police force and find out.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline eyeball

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 704
Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2021, 08:27:12 pm »
You really don't know much about what police do. You should ask for a ride along with your local police force and find out.
I'll never forget the ride along my daughter and a couple of her friends were taken on by police as part of their 'punishment' for getting caught drinking.  As the cop took them through the local trailer park he told the girls to roll down the windows.  He said he wanted them to know how easy it was to sniff out pot use and keep an eye on the community.  By all accounts my daughter never skipped a beat and asked why they couldn't do the same thing up on Belvedere Heights where the pot smelled better.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 08:32:05 pm by eyeball »

Offline wilber

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6907
Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2021, 08:43:58 pm »
I'll never forget the ride along my daughter and a couple of her friends were taken on by police as part of their 'punishment' for getting caught drinking.  As the cop took them through the local trailer park he told the girls to roll down the windows.  He said he wanted them to know how easy it was to sniff out pot use and keep an eye on the community.  By all accounts my daughter never skipped a beat and asked why they couldn't do the same thing up on Belvedere Heights where the pot smelled better.

Maybe you should go too.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline eyeball

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 704
Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2021, 08:52:07 pm »
Maybe you should go too.
Why, I didn't get caught doing anything.

Offline wilber

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6907
Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2021, 08:54:27 pm »
Why, I didn't get caught doing anything.

Not as punishment, for enlightenment.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline segnosaur

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 764
Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2021, 09:19:06 pm »
Should anyone have half an hour, I would recommend you watch the following episode of Last Week Tonight, with John Oliver.

It covers the type of things we were talking about... "defund the police", the reliance of police on "combat training", police unions, qualified immunity (another huge problem that we should have brought up earlier).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf4cea5oObY
Like Like x 1 View List

Offline wilber

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6907
Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2021, 09:26:07 pm »
Should anyone have half an hour, I would recommend you watch the following episode of Last Week Tonight, with John Oliver.

It covers the type of things we were talking about... "defund the police", the reliance of police on "combat training", police unions, qualified immunity (another huge problem that we should have brought up earlier).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf4cea5oObY

All in the US.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline segnosaur

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 764
Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2021, 09:44:55 pm »
Quote
Should anyone have half an hour, I would recommend you watch the following episode of Last Week Tonight, with John Oliver.
All in the US.
Yes, its an american show.

But, Canada does have similar issues (although not always to the same degree). We have qualified immunity. We do have a similar lack of health care professionals and other specialists to assist police. And racism does exist.


Offline kimmy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4207
  • Location: Kim City BC
Re: Defund the Police
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2021, 10:25:41 pm »
Should anyone have half an hour, I would recommend you watch the following episode of Last Week Tonight, with John Oliver.

It covers the type of things we were talking about... "defund the police", the reliance of police on "combat training", police unions, qualified immunity (another huge problem that we should have brought up earlier).

I thought that John Oliver video was excellent and informative.  I have to point out the part where he talks about the slogan "Defund The Police" and talks about Tucker Carlson misrepresenting it and scaremongering with the idea that people are talking about eliminating the police entirely.  I mean, no **** people find "Defund The Police" alarming.  Of course people assume it means people are talking about eliminating the police entirely.  It's a terrible slogan that invites people to assume you're talking about eliminating the police.  Obviously people were alarmed. Obviously it made people hesitant about what was being advocated for.  If you have to choose a bumper-sticker length sound-bite to sum up your plan, you should try to pick a sound-bite that doesn't make average people think you're a wing-nut.

 -k
Masked for your safety.