Author Topic: De-Platforming the Far Right  (Read 87 times)

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Offline Michael Hardner

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De-Platforming the Far Right
« on: September 22, 2018, 08:27:13 am »
https://longreads.com/2018/09/18/no-i-will-not-debate-you/

Great quotes here:

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The marketplace of ideas is just as full of con artists, scammers, and Ponzi schemes as any other marketplace, and as always, when the whole thing comes crashing down, it’s ordinary marks who lose everything. Bannon is that rare thing: a true Gordon Gekko in the attention economy, a man who is both troll and true believer, a man whose lack of integrity is part of the ideology: win at all costs and screw the other guy, because fools and their morals are easily parted

And - on liberalism:

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I don’t believe that holding this position makes anyone evil or stupid. I understand why people cling to it like shipwreck survivors on a floating door. The problem is that it relies on two pieces of magical thinking: number one, that intellectual ideas are the same as moral ones, and number two, that the sucking ethical vacuum at the center of public life can be replaced with a commitment to the polite forms of a free society.

Wow.

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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: De-Platforming the Far Right
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2018, 08:42:05 am »
Maybe another title might be 'Whither liberalism' ? 

Offline TimG

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Re: De-Platforming the Far Right
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2018, 08:46:31 am »
Great quotes here:
The problem with fanatics like the author of this op is they are absolutely convinced that their interpretation of opinions is the only morally correct opinion that can be expressed. The author tosses around the label "white supremacist" or "fascist" as a catch all for any opinion she dislikes. For example:

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Every day, people on the internet ask why I won’t “debate” some self-actualizing gig-economy fascist or other, as if formal, public debate were the only way to steer public conversation.
Well the gig-economy issue is complex but to call people who see the positive side of the trend "fascists" is simply absurd and neatly illustrates how the author is really no different from the people she claims to oppose.

Suppressing ideas and opposition is the road to tyranny and no good will ever come from it. De-platforming opinions the author does not like will not make the ideas go away but simply convince the people attracted to those ideas that must have merit because they are feared.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 08:48:40 am by TimG »

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: De-Platforming the Far Right
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2018, 09:08:59 am »
The problem with fanatics like the author of this op is they are absolutely convinced that their interpretation of opinions is the only morally correct opinion that can be expressed.

Let me ask you if you have opinions that you believe are - potentially - not morally correct.  Can you think of an opinion that is potentially not morally correct ?  How about extemporaneous appropriation of private property ?

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The author tosses around the label "white supremacist" or "fascist" as a catch all for any opinion she dislikes. For example:
Well the gig-economy issue is complex but to call people who see the positive side of the trend "fascists" is simply absurd and neatly illustrates how the author is really no different from the people she claims to oppose.

I think you misunderstand her point: she is saying, I think, that the gig economy provides fascists-for-hire to the media.  The prose here is flowery.

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Suppressing ideas and opposition is the road to tyranny and no good will ever come from it. De-platforming opinions the author does not like will not make the ideas go away but simply convince the people attracted to those ideas that must have merit because they are feared.

Actually, they make a case that Milo Yiannopoulos has faded because of de-platforming.

Offline TimG

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Re: De-Platforming the Far Right
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2018, 09:29:06 am »
Let me ask you if you have opinions that you believe are - potentially - not morally correct.  Can you think of an opinion that is potentially not morally correct ?  How about extemporaneous appropriation of private property ?
My opinions are constantly in flux as I get more information and see consequences in the real world. To argue that the opinions I hold today are morally correct would to be argue that the me of the past or future would hold immoral opinions.

I also tend to see things in terms of consequences rather than morality. i.e. arbitrary expropriation of someone else's property would have the consequence that my property would be subject to the same and that it would open the door to corruption as politicians use the power to enrich themselves and beggar their opponents. Neither would lead to a society that I would want to live in.

Actually, they make a case that Milo Yiannopoulos has faded because of de-platforming.
I think it had more to do with the attempt to rationalize pedophilia that was too much for his fans. But I don't see his ideas disappearing just because he was disgraced.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 09:30:45 am by TimG »

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: De-Platforming the Far Right
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2018, 09:30:09 am »
Liberalism means freedom and capitalism will solve this. 

Any private company, like a newspaper or TV channel, has the right to publish opinions of who they want and who they don't.  If a controversial far-right person is given a platform on private media, the public consumers have every right to protest this, and the company has a right to respond to their consumer' by not featuring said far-right opinions anymore in response in order to keep their customers.  Now, if other consumers start protesting the ban on far-right speakers, the company again has every right to respond to those consumers by featuring those rightwing opinions.

I think the big problem happens when you have public or publicly funded institutions like universities or state media like CBC who have to deal with who to give platforms to or not.  They don't have the same freedom to pick and choose at whim like a private company.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: De-Platforming the Far Right
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2018, 10:27:05 am »
I also tend to see things in terms of consequences rather than morality. i.e. arbitrary expropriation of someone else's property would have the consequence that my property would be subject to the same and that it would open the door to corruption as politicians use the power to enrich themselves and beggar their opponents. Neither would lead to a society that I would want to live in.

Right but your maxim indicates you may see it necessary to agree with such a practice at some point.   Pragmatism.
 

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: De-Platforming the Far Right
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2018, 10:34:26 am »
Liberalism means freedom and capitalism will solve this. 

That is pretty succinct.  I will refer to that idea in the future, I think.

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Any private company, like a newspaper or TV channel, has the right to publish opinions of who they want and who they don't.  If a controversial far-right person is given a platform on private media, the public consumers have every right to protest this, and the company has a right to respond to their consumer' by not featuring said far-right opinions anymore in response in order to keep their customers.  Now, if other consumers start protesting the ban on far-right speakers, the company again has every right to respond to those consumers by featuring those rightwing opinions.

Don't you see some problems with this 'marketplace' ?  Isn't that the marketplace of the MSM that people complain doesn't give time to some ideas ?

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I think the big problem happens when you have public or publicly funded institutions like universities or state media like CBC who have to deal with who to give platforms to or not.  They don't have the same freedom to pick and choose at whim like a private company.

As long as they're not forced to follow each other then it might be ok though.   Again ... I reiterate I am being challenged by these discussions.  This is all thinking out loud, or at least in post form. 

Keeping the marketplace of ideas alive means allowing in new ideas but not every single one:  With major media changes (twitter/facebook preceded by the web preceded by Cable TV News preceded by TV news and magazines preceded by radio and newspaper...) the landscape and major players change and all make attempts to increase influence and stature.   New ideas try to push their way in.  The situation makes it look like the old media prism was old-fashioned - which it was - and gives new media the sparkle of the 'new' whether deserved or not.  It challenges old ideas but also pushes out old wisdoms.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: De-Platforming the Far Right
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2018, 12:36:02 pm »
Don't you see some problems with this 'marketplace' ?  Isn't that the marketplace of the MSM that people complain doesn't give time to some ideas ?

It seems any idea or viewpoint or story that any sizeable group of people wants to hear has an outlet to broadcast it, whether its online or TV or whatever.  There's no perfect media outlet that gives fair time to all views.  Some people like CNN or MSBNC, some like FOX.  I don't like any of those so I avoid them.  And if I think those outlets suck and people shouldn't watch them I'm free to say that, but who am I to force them not to watch it or to force the outlet to change what people like to watch? People vote with their eyeballs.
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Offline Omni

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Re: De-Platforming the Far Right
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2018, 12:43:40 pm »
It seems any idea or viewpoint or story that any sizeable group of people wants to hear has an outlet to broadcast it, whether its online or TV or whatever.  There's no perfect media outlet that gives fair time to all views.  Some people like CNN or MSBNC, some like FOX.  I don't like any of those so I avoid them.  And if I think those outlets suck and people shouldn't watch them I'm free to say that, but who am I to force them not to watch it or to force the outlet to change what people like to watch? People vote with their eyeballs.

Of course you have the right to watch/listen to whoever you like but I am glad to hear you don't like Fox(Faux). You can usually identify people who spend their time listening to that nonsense (taxme is a good example). Even the former CEO Roger Ailes admitted it was an "entertainment channel" not a real news one.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: De-Platforming the Far Right
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2018, 07:58:50 am »
I shared the OP on facebook and it's being shared quite a bit.  I suspect 'liberals' are reconsidering liberalism.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: De-Platforming the Far Right
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2018, 03:56:14 pm »
I shared the OP on facebook and it's being shared quite a bit.  I suspect 'liberals' are reconsidering liberalism.

I tend to agree that debating Fascists won't convince them of anything. But that's not the goal. The goal is to convince others that Fascists are loonies.
This woman is similarly a looney. Only from the other side of the political divide. Intolerant, full of hatred and the need to punish anyone who says anything with which she disagrees or which she finds offensive. She might talk about 'fascists' but she has a broad, sweeping sense of who may and may not give their opinions. Like most Marxists she allows for no dissent, no opinions other than hers.

In January 2018, Penny commented on the controversy surrounding fired Google engineer James Damore, calling his famous memo "eye-poppingly sexist" and defended his dismissal as an act of "basic decency." She stated: "I discriminate against people who are rightwing and conservative. I’m entirely happy to say so.

For those who don't remember of never knew, an engineer at Google provided an internal communication forum with his opinion. It wasn't meant to be perjorative or anything. And no one has actually been able to demonstrate it was false. Quite to the contrary. He basically said the reason there weren't many female engineers was that women didn't want to be engineers, wouldn't invest the kind of time into it as so many geek boys do, were more neurotic than men, and preferred to work with people than machines. All of which has been repeatedly demonstrated in multiple academic settings. Her anger at him simply demonstrates her own intolerance towards view which, while nowhere remotely near to fascism, contradicts her world view.

By the way, where is the 'far right' with the same kind of platform as far leftists like her? If we want to 'de platform' the far right shouldn't we also de-platform the far left? They're more dangerous in the end.

« Last Edit: September 23, 2018, 03:58:43 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: De-Platforming the Far Right
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2018, 03:57:09 pm »
I shared the OP on facebook and it's being shared quite a bit.  I suspect 'liberals' are reconsidering liberalism.

Did you share she was a man-hating radical feminist Marxist?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
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Offline kimmy

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Re: De-Platforming the Far Right
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2018, 04:57:24 pm »
I tend to agree that debating Fascists won't convince them of anything. But that's not the goal. The goal is to convince others that Fascists are loonies.

I no longer believe debate in the sense of two people stand in front of a podium and present arguments in two-minute chunks. That's not an exercise in discussing ideas, it's just theatre.  Skilled debaters use tactics to avoid and deflect uncomfortable questions while putting their opponents on the defensive with non-sequiturs.  It's not about weighing an idea, it's about duping the audience.


One of the well known dishonest but successful debating tactics people use is called "the Gish Gallop".  You set out a series of strawmen and misrepresent your opponent's opinions, and your opponent spends their allotted time trying to correct this misrepresentation of their opinion instead of making their own case.  This leaves the audience with the impression that you came equipped with a truckload of information and your opponent spent the whole debate on the defensive, and conclude that you've won the debate.

This dovetails with an idea cybercoma presented here a while back, the "Brandolini Bullshit Asymmetry Principle", which is basically that takes a lot less effort to create bullshit than to refute bullshit.  It was presented in the context of explaining why fake news has been so successful and pervasive, but the same principle also explains why the "Gish Gallop" is such a successful debating tactic.

It's named after a guy named Duane Gish who was, I gather, a creationist who was also a tremendously successful debater.  His success at leaving evolutionists flustered and exasperated during debates doesn't make creationism any more real or viable. It just illustrates the shortcomings of formal debate as a format. 

And in a broader sense, this sort of Gish Gallop, Bullshit Asymmetry approach seems to be present everywhere from talking head interviews on TV or discussions on message boards. Think of this next time you watch Kellyanne Conway on TV or see 9/11 truthies spewing crap on message boards.


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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: De-Platforming the Far Right
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2018, 05:19:39 pm »
Kimmy i get what you're saying, but the Munk debates are awesome.  I believe that's the debate Bannon will be at in Nov in Toronto and where the OP writer backed out of the debate.

Most people aren't super skilled debaters will clandestine deception skills, they just want to make arguments.
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