Author Topic: Culture Culture  (Read 5937 times)

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #45 on: October 12, 2021, 04:17:40 pm »
1. But I did say we have a national identity.  It is recognized in our being welcoming and accepting.

2. Why are these opposites to you ?  And if you are talking about talking about our past, there are tons of counter examples.  We have, as other countries do, holidays and monuments and artifacts devoted to Canadian history of more than 50 years ago.  Intellectually, it makes sense for us to "push" or let's say "promote" diversity because the goals of promoting a national culture are to do what is right for the time. 

At one time, promoting our ties to Britain were essential to ensuring that Canada support their welfare, for example so that we would conscript our young men to fight in the World Wars or even in colonies like S. Africa.  Then there was a push to think of Canada as it's own country, and we got our own flag, our own identity. 

For Canada to thrive, we have to be open to attracting talent and growing so diversity is the way IMO.  If you think of culture as old guys in Tartan skirts, well guess what - culture dies.  And nobody's culture dies quicker than that of the landed immigrant.  You can think of it as a trade off: they will not think of themselves as Indian or Pakistani anymore, but we will have more Canadians and more unity and cohesion.  And please don't try to tell me that the country is at some racial breaking point.  I have never seen evidence of that, except in the tiny minority of people whose loudness belies their numbers.

3. People never knew much about our history, even before immigration turned up a notch.  So, asking for us to know our history seems to me to be only a reaction to immigration.  That doesn't make sense to me. 

And this statement: "f you want people to feel united then nurture a national identity/culture where everyone feels they belong." seems to be a slogan for promoting diversity.

1.  That's not unique enough of an identity to build a nation around.  There's many other countries with those traits.  Sure it can be a part of our identity but IMO it's not enough.  You have to feel that you are Canadian, and you have to have a strong sense and attachment to what that means, and have pride in being such.  This just sounds like you're repeating the official Liberal government lines they've told us.

2.  Multiculturalism is fine but its not a culture in itself.  A culture of "everyone practices their own culture" is not a unifying culture, its something that divides people rather than unites people under a singular culture or nation.  If you want to practice your unique culture fine, but all people should feel a part of the Canadian culture as well, whatever we make it.  If there's some kind of culture that all Canadians feel a part, that's what's unifying.  I'm not a Sikh Punjabi, I am friends with some, but I don't know a lot of what it's like to live as a Sikh, I can't relate to other Sikh's in their Sikhness, I can only relate to them in their Canadian-ness or general humaness.

This is about identity.  Canadian identity is not very strong.  American identity is strong.  They're proud to be American, they know what it means to be American, many would fight to defend it.  Canadians are increasingly taught to be ashamed of their country.  Here's the test of nationalism:  If Canada sank into the ocean and all Canadians dispersed into other countries, how much do you think Canadian diaspora in other countries would want to come together and live together, like migrants do in Canadian cities?

3.  Knowing our history isn't about immigration, it's about Canadians feeling Canadian and knowing what Canada is, whether born here or not.  A lot of Americans feel very American because they're taught about their country growing up and are proud of it.  Imagine being on a sports team and saying "we're accepting of players from all teams".  It might be nice for everyone to wear the same jersey and feel a part of the same team instead of everyone wearing their own jerseys from their other teams.  Quebec might feel Quebecois, they're wearing the Quebec jersey and flying the Quebec flag.  That's fine but they should feel proud to wear the Canadian jersey as well, but many of them don't seem interested in wanting to be on Team Canada.  If you think saying to Quebec "we're diverse and multicultural, go celebrate your Quebec-ness" is enough to unify Quebec with the rest of Canada I don't think so.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2021, 04:23:35 pm »
So what you're saying is your preference is for short posts without anything to challenge your preconceptions and beliefs?

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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2021, 04:49:26 pm »
So what you're saying is your preference is for short posts without anything to challenge your preconceptions and beliefs?

No, I’m saying that was your best post yet.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2021, 05:55:03 pm »
1. Lots of countries thrive and have thrived for centuries with little or no immigration or diversity. Canada's level of diversity is extraordinary among western countries and I haven't noticed this has made us superior rivals to our peers.

2. Not if it's the agreed culture of a people and not something foisted upon them. Men don't wear kilts in this country but Scottish Canadians I know retain much of the awareness and pride in the history of their people. Are we teaching Canadians pride in the history of THIS country? I don't think so.

3. Says who? 

4. That's is not the way it's looking, especially with the progressive determination to separate everyone into different tribes, races and groups and the politicians playing along so as to target various ethnic groups for votes and donations.

5. But we did have a shared sense of our history, our values and who were were as a people. And btw, immigration went from about 75k in Pierre's time to 400k now and still rising. That's not a 'notch'.

 
1. Centuries ?  Well, ok, but the GDP growth in the middle ages was about zero.  Canada can't have a long storied history like France anymore but... neither does France anymore.  If you want to get really meta about it - countries are dissolving away.  If you don't think fewer immigration problem is an economic advantage, I would have to ask why not ?

2. I think we are teaching it.

3. Me.  I personally know lots of immigrants and their kids.  The kids are Canadian, period.  If you can find an academic study or some objective examination of such things, I would honestly be MORE inclined to believe it than my anecdotal experience but that is all I have.

4. See #3 - also every party has immigrants running and/or elected as MPs.  How exactly this works out for Canadians born in India vs. South America is not clear to me.  I would imagine it's like Florida Cubans influencing elections but ...

5. Yes I retract the word 'notch'.  Did we have a sense of our history and was it accurate ?  I would say we have a way of life and values that are shared, more than 'history'. 




Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2021, 06:00:53 pm »
1.  That's not unique enough of an identity to build a nation around.  There's many other countries with those traits.  Sure it can be a part of our identity but IMO it's not enough.  You have to feel that you are Canadian, and you have to have a strong sense and attachment to what that means, and have pride in being such.  This just sounds like you're repeating the official Liberal government lines they've told us.

2.  Multiculturalism is fine but its not a culture in itself.  A culture of "everyone practices their own culture" is not a unifying culture, its something that divides people rather than unites people under a singular culture or nation. 

3. This is about identity.  Canadian identity is not very strong.  American identity is strong.  They're proud to be American, they know what it means to be American, many would fight to defend it.  Canadians are increasingly taught to be ashamed of their country.  Here's the test of nationalism:  If Canada sank into the ocean and all Canadians dispersed into other countries, how much do you think Canadian diaspora in other countries would want to come together and live together, like migrants do in Canadian cities?

 

1. Well, in practical terms I don't think it really makes sense for us to look at the people of history as having much to do with who we are.  Yes, we had relatives that fought wars, and we remember their great sacrifice.  What else ?  Maybe values is a better thing to base unity on.

Do you have anything else to suggest ?  I'm open to it.

2. No - multiculturalism is "you are free to continue to practice your culture and you will be respected".  In practice, that doesn't happen to any meaningful level.  It's a melting pot.  My neighbour is an It guy whose parents came from India.  India horrified him when he went.  He is Mississaugan.

3.  Americans seem to have little idea what it means to be American.  There is less unity there than in Canada now as recent political events have shown.  So maybe use a different example.


Offline wilber

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #50 on: October 12, 2021, 06:32:50 pm »
1. Let's look at that.  I just spent 20 minutes trying to find the numbers on this and had to sift through dozens of "Alberta is being ripped off" pages.  Ontario doesn't talk much about being ripped off.  Let's see what this means.

"Carrying this country fiscally" 
By my calculation Alberta contributes $12.6B to the federal revenue and Ontario contributes $38.7B

By the same calculation - Alberta pays 8% more PER CAPITA than Ontario but they don't have provincial sales tax, which coincidentally is 8% in Ontario.

https://lop.parl.ca/sites/PublicWebsite/default/en_CA/ResearchPublications/201701E#show/hide





It isn't about total revenues, its about excess revenues. Per capita, Albertans send over $3K more to Ottawa in taxes than they receive in federal spending. Per capita, Albertans send about $1500 more tax revenues to Ottawa than Ontarians. If you do some simple arithmetic, that comes to a bit less than the have not provinces receive more in federal spending than they sent to Ottawa in tax revenues.

The link you posted backs up everything I have said.

Provinces do not benefit from other provinces sales taxes nor do provincial sales taxes have anything to do with federal revenues or federal payments to provinces. Whether a province charges a sales tax is strictly a provincial issue.


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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #51 on: October 12, 2021, 08:17:53 pm »
1. Well, in practical terms I don't think it really makes sense for us to look at the people of history as having much to do with who we are.  Yes, we had relatives that fought wars, and we remember their great sacrifice.  What else ?  Maybe values is a better thing to base unity on.

Do you have anything else to suggest ?  I'm open to it.

2. No - multiculturalism is "you are free to continue to practice your culture and you will be respected".  In practice, that doesn't happen to any meaningful level.  It's a melting pot.  My neighbour is an It guy whose parents came from India.  India horrified him when he went.  He is Mississaugan.

3.  Americans seem to have little idea what it means to be American.  There is less unity there than in Canada now as recent political events have shown.  So maybe use a different example.

1.  I think it's harder to have a love for a country if you don't know very much about it.  How many Canadians know what the Statute of Westminster is?  A very small minority.  It's said to be like Canada's declaration of independence.  That says a lot.

2. ok.

3.  Americans may disagree politically but they all still feel like Americans.  Hardly anyone wants to separate.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #52 on: October 12, 2021, 08:30:46 pm »
1.  I think it's harder to have a love for a country if you don't know very much about it.  How many Canadians know what the Statute of Westminster is?  A very small minority.  It's said to be like Canada's declaration of independence.  That says a lot.

2.  Americans may disagree politically but they all still feel like Americans.  Hardly anyone wants to separate.
1. Ok but when was that ever known ?  People don't know things.
2. That doesn't really mean anything if they don't agree on what America IS. 

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #53 on: October 12, 2021, 09:23:35 pm »
The American jingoistic, us v. them, model of national unity is not one I would hold up as being the ideal goal. 

Also, it falls apart as anything positive when you see that one side of the political spectrum would like to subvert democracy to gain power at any cost and doesn’t hold democracy as a value worth having.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #54 on: October 12, 2021, 10:01:38 pm »
The American jingoistic, us v. them, model of national unity is not one I would hold up as being the ideal goal. 

Also, it falls apart as anything positive when you see that one side of the political spectrum would like to subvert democracy to gain power at any cost and doesn’t hold democracy as a value worth having.

I haven't made any mention of these things.  The point is that they all feel American and a part of the same team at the end of the day, despite political differences.  Canada isn't going to build a giant military and bomb our way to patriotism.  But we can teach more about our country and be proud of that.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #55 on: October 12, 2021, 10:09:03 pm »
1. Ok but when was that ever known ?  People don't know things.

Why does it matter if was ever known?  How is that relevant to right now?

Maybe there was a stronger sense of nation when those living had to go through events like WWI and WWII?

Your suggestion of emphasizing diversity and multiculturalism has been M.O. increasingly preached the last 40-50 years and hasn't created unity or a strong sense of nation, in fact when it comes to indigenous and Quebec it has made things worse.  We need something more.

Quote
2. That doesn't really mean anything if they don't agree on what America IS.

Liberty, apple pie, baseball, George Washington?
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #56 on: October 12, 2021, 10:27:36 pm »
Your suggestion of emphasizing diversity and multiculturalism has been M.O. increasingly preached the last 40-50 years and hasn't created unity or a strong sense of nation, in fact when it comes to indigenous and Quebec it has made things worse.  We need something more.

I think as far as unity goes, the Quebec issue was much worse 20-50 years ago. 

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #57 on: October 13, 2021, 06:23:39 am »
1. Why does it matter if was ever known?  How is that relevant to right now?

2. Maybe there was a stronger sense of nation when those living had to go through events like WWI and WWII?

3. Your suggestion of emphasizing diversity and multiculturalism has been M.O. increasingly preached the last 40-50 years and hasn't created unity or a strong sense of nation, in fact when it comes to indigenous and Quebec it has made things worse.  We need something more.

4. Liberty, apple pie, baseball, George Washington?

1. Because why try something that never worked in the first place ?

2. No, they were devoted to Britain from what I understand, and the Queen.

3. No - I think I used other words like 'welcoming'.  I would also add 'industriousness' and 'pragmatic' as well as 'cooperative'. The strong sense of nation happens in some places but not others.

4. All are banned by the politically correct and we hate you.

Offline wilber

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #58 on: October 13, 2021, 02:21:23 pm »
A dumb tag was all squid had. No rebuttal to the Library of Parliament numbers at all.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2021, 02:45:41 pm »
A dumb tag was all squid had. No rebuttal to the Library of Parliament numbers at all.

We’ve gone through this a hundred times.  Your refusal to recognize that the richest part of the country pays more because they’re richer and gets less because, being the richest part of the country they don’t need as much money spent there, is the dumb part.

It’s not about figures…. I agree that Albertans pay more and receive less spent there.   It’s about ideology.  And your ideology that says wealthy Canadians should pay less and wealthy parts of the country should receive the same amount in fed taxes spent there is patently absurd.