Author Topic: Culture Culture  (Read 5993 times)

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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #90 on: October 18, 2021, 04:07:36 pm »
Jingoism is defined as "extreme patriotism".  That's not what i'm talking about.

I want to teach history so people know about their country, good and bad, so they have some connection to it.  Naturally they will have some pride as well as shame.  Never did I say I want to teach kids what to think, you projected that on me by taking my quote about Americans out of context.  I never said I wanted US-style patriotism, I said Americans have more of a connection to their country and have been taught its history and civics.  I don't always agree with how it's taught because they do sometimes indoctrinate, especially in the media/films.  The point is that they're taught history and civics and have a deeper connection to their country in part because of it.

Again, teaching history, if done so properly, is not indoctrination.

There may be certain things in history you want to teach students, like soldier sacrifices in war and Remembrance Day, where you may want to teach them to be grateful for those sacrifices (which is moralizing), but that doesn't mean you don't teach the bad things about those wars either or paint all soldiers as saints or all wars as "good".

The reason to teach history and civics is so students have a better understanding of why things are the way they are and how the system functions, not to create some kind of "connection" to the concept of the nationstate.

Offline The Cynic

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #91 on: October 18, 2021, 05:03:05 pm »
Well, ok, but you are conflating two separate aspects of the labour market: the demand for labour and the desire to lower labour costs.

The demand for labour is what is supposed to govern labour costs. Without temporary foreign workers of various kinds and the flood of lower-skilled immigrants, it would almost impossible to hire anyone for minimum wage in much of this country and employers would have to increase wages and benefits. And in other parts of the country we wouldn't need to import low skilled immigrants were it not for the generosity of the various social welfare support programs.

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This is something I personally know a lot about because my wages, my whole career was knocked down by the latter.

My imperfect understanding is your job has something to do with hi-tech, and the wages have been lowered across the board there by immigration and temporary workers.

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Right - but in the US the wealth gap has increased, meaning the increase has gone to the wealthier in a greater proportion.

Because they've sold out to the wealthy who have adjusted the tax code to their benefit.

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Canadian business, though, has historically been small-minded and conservative in their thinking which is a reason to import high-end investors especially tech.

A better way would be to remove corporate welfare and protectionism and let business sink or swim on its own efforts. The lazy would soon be gone, and unable to even hire employees. I don't mean eliminate tariffs here. I'm talking about things like government subsidies for relocating call centres from one place to another, or paying for Tim Horton's to install new fridges or helping the banks buy new computers. The damn banks don't need our help, and neither does Tim Hortons. Cut the red tape, change the anti-business attitude, simplify the tax code. And if Bombardier or SNC Lavelin goes bankrupt so be it.


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I think it should be taught, and can be made interesting but does it resonate ?

If taught right. How many spoiled kids today even realize that we're about a century away from kids their age, and I mean like 8 year olds, working in the coal mines, mills and factories? How about teaching that, and that it's still the case in many parts of the world, and explaining how Canada did away with that so they can have the benefit of sitting there and learning things in a comfortable environment?

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2) Shared community.  I grew up in a pretty small town ~30K.  The dichotomy is that the towns are friendlier but also more hostile and even violent than the bigger places.  I am on a Facebook group for the place I came from and I can tell you that the "small town mentality" is a problem, but also there are connections and support you can't have in a big city.  There are connections that go way back but you can also get the **** kicked out of you by a stranger a lot more easily IMO.

Well, the good thing about small towns is people know each other. That's also the bad thing. I'm not trying to laud small towns as the preeminent place to live. I'm just saying they have retained more of a sense of Canada than cities where half the population is foreign born.

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3) Polite respect and conservatism: there you go.  You are echoing exactly what I have been saying Canada is about but using slightly different words and I agree 100%.  Polite respect and conservatism is, to me, akin to "welcoming and pragmatic".  I also happen to think that "caring conservatism" is a better political fit to Canada than Liberalism is.  This, to me, is why Mulroney was the single most popular politician we had in the 20th century ... until things went bad. Ha ha ha.

Mulroney had charisma, something we rarely see in politicians here, but was betrayed by his own arrogance and corruption as well as the world economy. It's difficult to describe what Canada means in a few words but a sense of shared values and history is crucial. When you grow up in a country you tend to share a lot of the same experiences with others who grow up there, even in different parts of the country. Who in the generation who were around then can not fondly recall the excitement of the Canada-USSR series? Why do Canadians aspire to have cottages and to go out into the woods to snowshoe, ski, hunt and fish? Is that shared by newcomers, do you think?

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Hegel (I think) felt that institutions had to be created to suit the times, and this is what we are talking about.  If it's about renewing our implicit contract with Canada then we have to find a way.  Order, authority, justice, work, responsibility, freedom are the conservative side of it and pluralism, respect for differences and social support are the liberal side. 

Yeah, but the country keeps changing due to a flood of newcomers and the continued fascination from our political class for whatever becomes popular in the United States.

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I will concur that Canada isn't able to discuss immigration policies dispassionately but the PPC - if they had any brains - would have recognized the minefield and scoured their party for far-right types before starting.  They also use the language of conspiracy theories.  They are a non-starter.

I'm not a PPC supporter nor an admirer of Bernier. But every new party has difficulty weeding out the people they don't want in their ranks. The existing parties have large staffs and have had decades of experience and yet every election they wind up having to dismiss various candidates for racist, homophobic, antisemitic or Islamophobic social media statements. And if the PPC had been led by a more charismatic anglo guy like Kevin O'Leary they would be a force to be reckoned with.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2021, 05:05:16 pm by The Cynic »
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #92 on: October 18, 2021, 05:30:51 pm »
Yeah, but the country keeps changing due to a flood of newcomers and the continued fascination from our political class for whatever becomes popular in the United States.

Countries change, cultures change, that's what they do. You want to trap the country in amber?

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I'm not a PPC supporter nor an admirer of Bernier. But every new party has difficulty weeding out the people they don't want in their ranks. The existing parties have large staffs and have had decades of experience and yet every election they wind up having to dismiss various candidates for racist, homophobic, antisemitic or Islamophobic social media statements. And if the PPC had been led by a more charismatic anglo guy like Kevin O'Leary they would be a force to be reckoned with.

And the question of why the PPC might attract so many fringe candidates that other parties might weed out remains unasked.

Offline The Cynic

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #93 on: October 18, 2021, 05:41:08 pm »
Countries change, cultures change, that's what they do. You want to trap the country in amber?

And is every change for the better?
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And the question of why the PPC might attract so many fringe candidates that other parties might weed out remains unasked.

Why would he need to be asked? Far right people will be attracted to whatever is the furthest right political party. if there was a Nazi party around theyd vote for that just in the same way as the Marxist-Leninist party and the Communist Party attract the worst of the far left cranks away from the NDP. Not that the NDP don't still get some.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #94 on: October 18, 2021, 07:15:13 pm »
The reason to teach history and civics is so students have a better understanding of why things are the way they are and how the system functions, not to create some kind of "connection" to the concept of the nationstate.

Why not both?

Raising good citizens means they should ideally know about our country.  That's why we have a citizenship test with a bunch of questions about Canada, it's system of governance, and its history etc.

There's nothing controversial about what i'm saying at all.  The pushback I'm getting on this is ridiculous.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #95 on: October 18, 2021, 09:01:11 pm »
And is every change for the better?

No. But your premise that change is being driven by immigrants and imported ideas is unproven.

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Why would he need to be asked? Far right people will be attracted to whatever is the furthest right political party. if there was a Nazi party around theyd vote for that just in the same way as the Marxist-Leninist party and the Communist Party attract the worst of the far left cranks away from the NDP. Not that the NDP don't still get some.

Sure, continue to squirm away from the obvious like a worm on a hook.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #96 on: October 18, 2021, 09:02:29 pm »
Why not both?

Raising good citizens means they should ideally know about our country.  That's why we have a citizenship test with a bunch of questions about Canada, it's system of governance, and its history etc.

There's nothing controversial about what i'm saying at all.  The pushback I'm getting on this is ridiculous.

Because if your project is aiming to make people feel "connected" then chances are you'l end up shying away from the more off-putting facts.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #97 on: October 18, 2021, 11:35:45 pm »
Because if your project is aiming to make people feel "connected" then chances are you'l end up shying away from the more off-putting facts.

That's total speculation on your part.  Yes at least part of the point is to help make people feel connection, not indoctrinate them into mindless obedience of some washed narrative.

I don't believe in moralizing our curriculum in public schools, which i've stated many times on this forum.  A public school's job is to teach the facts and not convince students of any "right or wrong" position on those facts.  So you teach them the facts of ie: Sir John A and allow the kids to debate and let each figure out how they feel about him.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #98 on: October 19, 2021, 09:21:51 am »
That's total speculation on your part.  Yes at least part of the point is to help make people feel connection, not indoctrinate them into mindless obedience of some washed narrative.

I don't believe in moralizing our curriculum in public schools, which i've stated many times on this forum.  A public school's job is to teach the facts and not convince students of any "right or wrong" position on those facts. So you teach them the facts of ie: Sir John A and allow the kids to debate and let each figure out how they feel about him.

How are they supposed to do that if you're "just teaching facts" and not the critical thinking skills needed to make sense of them?

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #99 on: October 19, 2021, 10:17:13 am »
The demand for labour is what is supposed to govern labour costs. Without temporary foreign workers of various kinds and the flood of lower-skilled immigrants, it would almost impossible to hire anyone for minimum wage in much of this country and employers would have to increase wages and benefits. And in other parts of the country we wouldn't need to import low skilled immigrants were it not for the generosity of the various social welfare support programs.

Yes, what I didn't do a good job of is clarifying.  But I think you know I am talking about the situation you describe.

 
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My imperfect understanding is your job has something to do with hi-tech, and the wages have been lowered across the board there by immigration and temporary workers.

Yes, but still relatively high.  I get that there can be a need to import tech workers if there's a shortage but the government should be also ensuring that the suppliers of labour are benefiting if there is wage and GDP growth.

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 I'm not a PPC supporter nor an admirer of Bernier. But every new party has difficulty weeding out the people they don't want in their ranks.

It would be nice if they admitted something like that.  What Bernier did was release the email addresses of reporters who asked him about this problem, exposing them to abuse.  If he was a serious politician and not a crank, then such a move would demand an apology at a minimum.

I agree with most of the rest of your post.   I wanted to point that out, because you put good effort into producing it.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #100 on: October 19, 2021, 02:48:49 pm »
It would be nice if they admitted something like that.  What Bernier did was release the email addresses of reporters who asked him about this problem, exposing them to abuse.  If he was a serious politician and not a crank, then such a move would demand an apology at a minimum.

The implicit belief that the cranks are bug and not a feature of the PPC is sending me.

Offline The Cynic

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #101 on: October 19, 2021, 03:24:04 pm »
No. But your premise that change is being driven by immigrants and imported ideas is unproven.

Sure, continue to squirm away from the obvious like a worm on a hook.

Dog, you seem to have an issue with basic logic. Would you like to talk about it? Is it because it conflicts so badly with most of your political and social beliefs?

Offline The Cynic

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #102 on: October 19, 2021, 03:35:35 pm »
Yes, but still relatively high.  I get that there can be a need to import tech workers if there's a shortage but the government should be also ensuring that the suppliers of labour are benefiting if there is wage and GDP growth.

It should not be that easy to declare that there's a shortage. A business that wants to import workers should have to actually meet with an official will ask what they have done to try and get hold of new employees or to train existing ones up. When we have a situation, which we do, where so many young Canadian technology people leave the country for better wages elsewhere what business has the tech sector got in claiming a shortage as a need to import workers? Maybe if they raise their wages there wouldn't be shortage. I could understand it if Canadian technology grads were being snapped up the instant they graduated, but my understanding is that's far from the case in most programs.

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It would be nice if they admitted something like that.  What Bernier did was release the email addresses of reporters who asked him about this problem, exposing them to abuse.  If he was a serious politician and not a crank, then such a move would demand an apology at a minimum.

The PPC's problem is that their leader is also a crank. Not the same kind as most people are complaining about, at least I haven't heard him being described as a racist, but he sure seems to be an anti-vaxxer nut. Most of their policy manual is straightforward conservatism, though. If the PPC ever get a new leader with charisma who can speak in clear English the Tories are going to be in big trouble.

Online wilber

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #103 on: October 19, 2021, 03:48:04 pm »
No provinces pay into equalization.

All provinces pay federal taxes, the ones that pay more than they receive in federal funding finance the ones who pay less than they receive in federal funding. If Quebec receives 13 billion more in federal spending than they send to Ottawa in tax revenues, how are they paying into equalization? I'm sure glad you guys don't manage my finances, you would bankrupt me in six months.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #104 on: October 19, 2021, 04:19:48 pm »
All provinces pay federal taxes, the ones that pay more than they receive in federal funding finance the ones who pay less than they receive in federal funding. If Quebec receives 13 billion more in federal spending than they send to Ottawa in tax revenues, how are they paying into equalization? I'm sure glad you guys don't manage my finances, you would bankrupt me in six months.

What if you work in Alberta temporarily but live in Newfoundland?  That still Albertan money, or is that Newfoundland money?