Author Topic: Culture Culture  (Read 2794 times)

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Offline Nipples Von Graham

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2021, 01:24:42 pm »

So in a way that's our raison d'etre as a nation.  Being stuck in a loveless marriage of convenience where all the children and grandchildren now have to suffer from the dysfunction of the two founding grandparents.

3 founding, don't forget about the indigenous.  More unity problems there.  I guess we basically have a power-sharing agreement between anglo-canada, quebec, and the indigenous.

Our constitution isn't going to change so I think we should focus on our commonalities and grow the Canadian identity, instead of only focusing on what is bad about Canada or why the feds suck.
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Offline Nipples Von Graham

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2021, 01:31:24 pm »
Americans don't know much about their history or even the state next door, yet there is a sense of unity (even though regional animosity exists).  We watch American movies and read American books. Canadian cinema is non-existent and Canadian TV has a small audience.

Disagree, Americans are taught a lot more about their history in schools than we are.  They also have it diffused through the media.   Canadians know more about US history than Canadian history, by a long shot, due mostly to media.  For many people, the old PM's they know is taught from handling paper money bills.

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Most musicians, actors or comedians that make it big end up in the US because we lack in the arts and don't see ourselves reflected the way British and French do.

I think a lot of that is just capitalism, more money to be made in the US.  Many great Canadian musicians used to be able to make a good living just in Canada and never "made it" in the US (CRTC helped a lot), but unfortunately the music industry everywhere is virtually dead.
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2021, 03:13:14 pm »
Disagree, Americans are taught a lot more about their history in schools than we are.  They also have it diffused through the media.   Canadians know more about US history than Canadian history, by a long shot, due mostly to media.  For many people, the old PM's they know is taught from handling paper money bills.

Maybe I'm projecting but I know a heck of a lot more about Canadian history than I do American.  We were taught in high school and I see my kids learning now in school as well.

I don't know much about American history other than the big events because I really don't have an interest.  Canadians learn Canadian history in their basic education but to learn American history we have to make an individual effort.

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2021, 03:20:37 pm »
3 founding, don't forget about the indigenous.  More unity problems there.  I guess we basically have a power-sharing agreement between anglo-canada, quebec, and the indigenous.

Our constitution isn't going to change so I think we should focus on our commonalities and grow the Canadian identity, instead of only focusing on what is bad about Canada or why the feds suck.

Agree, but as pointed out by Squid, we have so much regional resentment and protectionism.  People make fun of Trudeau for always referring to "Canadians" but I actually like that he does.  He tries to bring unity into the picture.

I think promoting tourism is a great way to achieve unity.  I have to say that I was the typical westerner growing up not understanding why Quebec hates Canada until I went there and saw just how much they ARE a nation within a nation. 

There really isn't much of a glue I don't think (just IMO) but best we can do is try to promote some of understanding.  I'll be the first to admit though that I have no interest in going to Alberta and trying to understand them.  The resentment runs deep. 

We are a bit of a paradox as a nation.
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Offline Nipples Von Graham

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2021, 09:34:09 pm »
Agree, but as pointed out by Squid, we have so much regional resentment and protectionism.  People make fun of Trudeau for always referring to "Canadians" but I actually like that he does.  He tries to bring unity into the picture.

I think promoting tourism is a great way to achieve unity.  I have to say that I was the typical westerner growing up not understanding why Quebec hates Canada until I went there and saw just how much they ARE a nation within a nation. 

There really isn't much of a glue I don't think (just IMO) but best we can do is try to promote some of understanding.  I'll be the first to admit though that I have no interest in going to Alberta and trying to understand them.  The resentment runs deep. 

We are a bit of a paradox as a nation.

I think we can feel a part of a nation while provinces still squabble with each other.  You can be a Texan and an American too.  You can be a Quebecois and a Canadian.
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Offline MH

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2021, 08:46:15 am »
1. No it's not.  It's saying "we don't have a national identity of significance, we're multicultural". 

2. The Liberal government doesn't push much of any national cultural or identity, they push multiculturalism and diversity.

3. If you want people to feel united then nurture a national identity/culture where everyone feels they belong.  People in this country don't know very much about Canada's history, that would be a great start.

1. But I did say we have a national identity.  It is recognized in our being welcoming and accepting.

2. Why are these opposites to you ?  And if you are talking about talking about our past, there are tons of counter examples.  We have, as other countries do, holidays and monuments and artifacts devoted to Canadian history of more than 50 years ago.  Intellectually, it makes sense for us to "push" or let's say "promote" diversity because the goals of promoting a national culture are to do what is right for the time. 

At one time, promoting our ties to Britain were essential to ensuring that Canada support their welfare, for example so that we would conscript our young men to fight in the World Wars or even in colonies like S. Africa.  Then there was a push to think of Canada as it's own country, and we got our own flag, our own identity. 

For Canada to thrive, we have to be open to attracting talent and growing so diversity is the way IMO.  If you think of culture as old guys in Tartan skirts, well guess what - culture dies.  And nobody's culture dies quicker than that of the landed immigrant.  You can think of it as a trade off: they will not think of themselves as Indian or Pakistani anymore, but we will have more Canadians and more unity and cohesion.  And please don't try to tell me that the country is at some racial breaking point.  I have never seen evidence of that, except in the tiny minority of people whose loudness belies their numbers.

3. People never knew much about our history, even before immigration turned up a notch.  So, asking for us to know our history seems to me to be only a reaction to immigration.  That doesn't make sense to me. 

And this statement: "f you want people to feel united then nurture a national identity/culture where everyone feels they belong." seems to be a slogan for promoting diversity.

Offline MH

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2021, 08:49:11 am »
1. In much of Europe, there is no concept of “Italian Britains” or “Black Britains” or “Canadian Britains”….  People are British when they’re in Britain.  Or, like in your example, Scandinavia.  Not sure why we always reference people as “Chinese-Canadians”,”Indo-Canadians” or whatever ….   Want social cohesion?  Get rid of those monikers.

2. Want cohesion across provinces?   Scandinavians do identify with a locale, be it where they’re living or where they grew up, but it is nothing like our provincial make-up in Canada.   If you want more cohesion nationally, you’re going to have to strive to make the central government a much more powerful figure in Canadian’s lives. 

3. The provincial equivalent in Norway doesn’t control the oil resources in that territory of Norway;  it’s a national resource.

4. Do we have it wrong here?  I think we probably do.  When it’s easier for a small brewery in Ontario to sell into the USA than it is for them to sell into Quebec, literally across the river from them, then it could be asked what the point of Canada actually is…?

1. Get rid of how ?   I sure don't hear those monikers very much if at all.
2. I think you have the germ of a good idea here, but I don't understand how making the federal government more powerful in peoples' lives will make, say, Alberta feel more Canadian.  We bought a pipeline for them and they hate central Canada even more than before.
3. Can you explain more ?  I feel like "oil resources" are controlled by the entities - mostly American - who own them.
4. Agreed on this point - a lot.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2021, 01:27:40 pm »
1. Get rid of how ?   I sure don't hear those monikers very much if at all.

How does anything in our culture disappear?  Generational change, I suppose.  Maybe hyphenated identity is important to people and will never disappear. 

I hear it all the time in media. 

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2. I think you have the germ of a good idea here, but I don't understand how making the federal government more powerful in peoples' lives will make, say, Alberta feel more Canadian.  We bought a pipeline for them and they hate central Canada even more than before.

I think if people were overwhelmingly Canadian, they wouldn’t be Albertan first.   Canada should buy a pipeline in the interest of Canada, not to appease a province.  You just summed up the problem right there by using “we” and “them”.  Aren’t “they” just fellow Canadians?

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3. Can you explain more ?  I feel like "oil resources" are controlled by the entities - mostly American - who own them.

The province owns the oil resources based on an agreement where the Feds handed that responsibility over in the early 1900’s (which they shouldn’t have done).  Now it’s Alberta’s oil.  Not Canada’s oil.

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4. Agreed on this point - a lot.

Yes, the inter-provincial economic barriers border on insanity.  Each province has closer economic ties to the USA than they do to each other.  I’m sure there are exceptions…. But talking to the brewery owner in Ontario when I was there really highlighted the problem for me.

Also, an Ontario plumber needs BC certification to work in BC.  There needs to be national standards accepted across the country for occupations that need certifications.  You think a plumber in Oslo couldn’t work in Tromsø?  Economically, we’re not a nation…. We’re a collection of provinces.  This harms unity and individual economic freedom.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2021, 01:46:47 pm »
1. Get rid of how ?   I sure don't hear those monikers very much if at all.


I think there is parochialism everywhere but you can't really compare a huge decentralized country like Canada with smaller more homogeneous countries in Europe.

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2. I think you have the germ of a good idea here, but I don't understand how making the federal government more powerful in peoples' lives will make, say, Alberta feel more Canadian.  We bought a pipeline for them and they hate central Canada even more than before.

2. Alberta can be frustrating at times but a lot of it is pushback against RoC attitudes, like the RoC refusal to recognize Alberta has been carrying this country fiscally for decades while calling Albertans whiners. We bought Canada a pipeline, not Alberta. Canada will own the line and revenues that come from it. It is no wonder Albertans get pissed off when other Canadians say they bought them a pipeline after those same Canadians just ran the private company which was trying to build it out of the country. Shear hypocrisy.
 
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3. Can you explain more ?  I feel like "oil resources" are controlled by the entities - mostly American - who own them.

In most other countries like Norway, the country owns resources, not the provinces. But again, these are smaller countries without the regional differences and histories.

4: Ditto
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Offline MH

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2021, 02:39:15 pm »
How does anything in our culture disappear?  Generational change, I suppose.  Maybe hyphenated identity is important to people and will never disappear. 

Ok, well from my perspective it IS disappearing as I don't hear it much anymore.

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I think if people were overwhelmingly Canadian, they wouldn’t be Albertan first.   Canada should buy a pipeline in the interest of Canada, not to appease a province.  You just summed up the problem right there by using “we” and “them”.  Aren’t “they” just fellow Canadians?

"We" = all Canadians and "They" being any subset. 

But my point is that strong central government and intervention - in this case to help - seemed to have the opposite effect.

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The province owns the oil resources based on an agreement where the Feds handed that responsibility over in the early 1900’s (which they shouldn’t have done).  Now it’s Alberta’s oil.  Not Canada’s oil.

Ok.   Gotcha now.

 

Offline MH

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #40 on: October 12, 2021, 03:15:04 pm »
1. refusal to recognize Alberta has been carrying this country fiscally for decades while calling Albertans whiners.

2. We bought Canada a pipeline, not Alberta. Canada will own the line and revenues that come from it. It is no wonder Albertans get pissed off when other Canadians say they bought them a pipeline after those same Canadians just ran the private company which was trying to build it out of the country. 
 
3. In most other countries like Norway, the country owns resources, not the provinces. But again, these are smaller countries without the regional differences and histories.

 
1. Let's look at that.  I just spent 20 minutes trying to find the numbers on this and had to sift through dozens of "Alberta is being ripped off" pages.  Ontario doesn't talk much about being ripped off.  Let's see what this means.

"Carrying this country fiscally" 

By my calculation Alberta contributes $12.6B to the federal revenue and Ontario contributes $38.7B

By the same calculation - Alberta pays 8% more PER CAPITA than Ontario but they don't have provincial sales tax, which coincidentally is 8% in Ontario.

https://lop.parl.ca/sites/PublicWebsite/default/en_CA/ResearchPublications/201701E#show/hide

2. True.  Trudeau could have let the pipeline die and then left Alberta to deal with the economic fallout.

3. If Canada ran Alberta's finances do you think there would still be a heritage fund ?

Alberta is going to be a whole lot better when the oil is gone IMO.

Offline The Cynic

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #41 on: October 12, 2021, 03:58:12 pm »




I have nothing to say but the stupid forum insists I say something or else so this is it.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #42 on: October 12, 2021, 04:08:50 pm »
I have nothing to say but the stupid forum insists I say something or else so this is it.

Your best post yet.

Offline The Cynic

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2021, 04:14:02 pm »
1. But I did say we have a national identity.  It is recognized in our being welcoming and accepting.

That's it? Not saying those aren't aspects of our culture. Particularly how we are far, far too accepting of everything, especially the failings of out government and economic system. But there's more to us than that.

 
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Intellectually, it makes sense for us to "push" or let's say "promote" diversity because the goals of promoting a national culture are to do what is right for the time. 

There are a couple of issues with this. The first is that we need to have a national identity to bring us to together and make us feel as though we have some kind of tenuous relationship with our fellow citizens - or why else should so many of us consent to having our money taxed away to pay for benefits going to others? Another is that in order to integrate all these foreigners coming in as immigrants we need to be able to present to them a body to join, a group, a people they might seek to emulate. Then there's the sociological fact that a people without any kind of shared history or vision aren't a people, and will shatter into disparate elements at the first rough spot on the road.

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For Canada to thrive, we have to be open to attracting talent and growing so diversity is the way IMO.

Lots of countries thrive and have thrived for centuries with little or no immigration or diversity. Canada's level of diversity is extraordinary among western countries and I haven't noticed this has made us superior rivals to our peers.

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If you think of culture as old guys in Tartan skirts, well guess what - culture dies.

Not if it's the agreed culture of a people and not something foisted upon them. Men don't wear kilts in this country but Scottish Canadians I know retain much of the awareness and pride in the history of their people. Are we teaching Canadians pride in the history of THIS country? I don't think so.

 
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And nobody's culture dies quicker than that of the landed immigrant.

Says who? Historically, perhaps, when all our immigrants were from Europe and the great majority from the British Isles integration happened quickly. Especially since we had little tolerance for anything else. But we're in a new era. The opening up of immigration to the third world forty or so years or so ago changed the narrative and we just don't know if people with hugely different cultural and religious values will ever fully integrate. Lots of Chinese never have. Nor do we pressure them like we would have, being far more willing to accommodate their different values and views. The federal government launched a great national experiment forty years or so ago without ever asking the Canadian people, and we have no idea how it's going to turn out.

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You can think of it as a trade off: they will not think of themselves as Indian or Pakistani anymore, but we will have more Canadians and more unity and cohesion.

That's is not the way it's looking, especially with the progressive determination to separate everyone into different tribes, races and groups and the politicians playing along so as to target various ethnic groups for votes and donations.

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3. People never knew much about our history, even before immigration turned up a notch.

But we did have a shared sense of our history, our values and who were were as a people. And btw, immigration went from about 75k in Pierre's time to 400k now and still rising. That's not a 'notch'.

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And this statement: "f you want people to feel united then nurture a national identity/culture where everyone feels they belong." seems to be a slogan for promoting diversity.

Only if it's to feel they belong to a single body, not as a separate tribe that's part of a loose federation of some sort.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 04:17:57 pm by The Cynic »

Offline The Cynic

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2021, 04:15:45 pm »
Your best post yet.

So what you're saying is your preference is for short posts without anything to challenge your preconceptions and beliefs?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 04:19:54 pm by The Cynic »