Author Topic: Culture Culture  (Read 2794 times)

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Offline MH

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2020, 03:34:06 pm »

Maybe its more a matter of accepting it for what it is by realizing the idea of an absolute we is and always has been an illusion that's impossible to resolve. Everything is relative to the observer and even more so as they increase their efforts to pin the same thing down at the same time and place.  Obviously a compromise of some sort is what we get by with because its the only way forward.Taken together, Graham's answer to the 2nd question and Michael's 3rd question shaped my next response.

Yes, but there is a fake idea of 'we' just as there is a fake idea of 'identity' or 'who am I'.  It's fake for the same reasons that the physics you mentioned above is uncertain:  I'm a bunch of different people, and so are 'we'.

I'm a loving father and great bandleader to some, but to someone else I'm the **** who didn't signal before that turn.

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Recent events and now this thread have have steered me towards thinking about the psychohistorian Hari Seldon in the sci-fi Foundation Series.  In the story Hari Seldon develops a theory of mathematical sociology and uses it to predict the collapse of a centralized Galactic Empire followed by a 30,000 year interregnum. He crafts a plan to shorten that to a 1000 years based on using his theory to predict the future of large populations[sic].

Love that work interregnum.  We are said to be in one now. 
   
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Technological development and how it shapes society is as big a feature in the Foundation story as it is in this thread but will the bigger influence on what shapes cultural forms in our future be technological or sociological?  The latter I think.

I think the former, because humans don't behave very differently from... ever.  They used to listen to wizards... then they listened to scientists... and today they listen to crazy morons.

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We'll live in several communities that are changing according to us not the other way around. Technology will be a key feature in each communities cultural and physical sustainability and especially with regards to the natural biophysical environment they occupy but ultimately what people do will be the determining factor and predicting what that will be is the rub. In any case the future is ahead of us not in the rear-view mirror.

We need to get our minds wrapped around the fact that the dangers we are biologically programmed to face are no longer as relevant.  Strange tribes, wild beasts, famine and even war are on the way out as the value of life goes up.

We need competition in some ways to keep us honest but not really that much.  A meritocracy can sustain itself without huge penalties for failure, but with rewards for success.

Offline MH

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2020, 03:35:03 pm »
Hoe about a center that's technological and based on science? Science is probably closer to a universal language, which probably holds true right across the universe come to think of it. We should be able to communicate with anyone technically speaking, or speaking technically if it happens to be with intelligent cephalopods.

Science is just a tool.  The universal language is love, and I am conversant in all of its dialects...

The Nazis were great at science, really really good.

Offline Nipples Von Graham

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2020, 04:42:31 pm »
As I have said before, the idea that multiculturalism is 180 degrees different from the melting pot negates reality.  I know people from China, Israel, etc. who feel more at home in Canada than in their 'home' countries.  Multiculturalism is, to me, an assertion of one's right to express their background without apology but it doesn't mean that Canadians don't blend in.

If you've been in Canada for decades you can adapt to the local culture, while the culture in your previous country changes, and yes i've heard immigrants say that after being in Canada for decades when they go back to the homeland they don't feel as much a part of it because it isn't the country or culture they remember.

The one area we do ask new citizens to adapt to culturally is language.  Most are required to learn english or french to be a citizen (though quite a few immigrants remain permanent residents and never get citizenship).  That is cultural assimilation, and the most important kind because there's nothing more divisive than language because if people can't even communicate with each other it's hard to interact.

It still seems inevitable for cultural differences to increase though, as the % of the population that is foreign-born and thus diversity continues to increase.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.
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Offline MH

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2020, 06:18:15 pm »
I think assimilation is going to continue.

Offline Omni

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2020, 11:42:14 pm »
Anybody here ever skated around on an ice rink with a stick and a team shirt on and then hit a hockey puck as hard as they could at their friend in the opposing teams goal? Or gone to a karate dojo and shot a front kick toward their friend on that same floor? I've done both those things and the outcome has been that I feel closer to those with whom I walk the face of this earth with. I guess my point is that competition, in it's proper form, can actually bring us closer together. 

Offline MH

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2020, 06:35:20 am »
The fact that people compete in games shows that you don't need a life struggle to drive yourself to do better.

I want to maybe look at the current situation and see if there are any answers coming to my questions.


Offline eyeball

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2020, 12:25:20 pm »
Science is just a tool.  The universal language is love, and I am conversant in all of its dialects...

The Nazis were great at science, really really good.
But they really sucked at love so.  It's what people do with things like science or love or ball-peen hammers that matters. Our things are nothing and do nothing without us.  I meant that science is a universal language for aware beings interested in conversing with one another. If love is a universal language its probably pretty simple and more along the lines of 'I'd love to eat that thing' or 'I'd love it if that thing didn't eat me'.

You mentioned your love for the word interregnum. This could be it or it may just be the transition to one. The term is associated with a longer period of time between an old and new order as in the interregnum that followed the collapse of the Roman Empire. OTOH it could also be a quicker switch like the one the Black Death triggered.

The fact that people compete in games shows that you don't need a life struggle to drive yourself to do better.

I want to maybe look at the current situation and see if there are any answers coming to my questions.
People are one thing and something certainly matters more than the game when competing for fun. When competition is fun it suggests to me the cultural struggle to do better has been won. But when cultures compete its all fun and games until...well I guess cultures can also fall into the trap of playing the player instead of the ball. Decadence also seems to be something that precedes and attends the undoing of many cultures, they lose resiliency become brittle, it doesn't take much to knock them of their pedestals if they're unprepared and they can shatter into hundreds of pieces.  And a bunch of little newly isolated cultures are born. Technology may reduce the isolation and make the interregnum easier or shorter if the means to trade and communicate are still intact but OTOH it could also prolong the agony.  I always thought the Apocalypse would arrive with a bang but technology really seems to be dragging it out. The slow motion of it all is driving everyone nuts. 

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Yes, but there is a fake idea of 'we' just as there is a fake idea of 'identity' or 'who am I'
What makes it fake? A feeling you generate or an impression you receive?  Science tells me I am little different from anyone else where it matters but culture says otherwise.  Maybe we could ask a more universal question like 'what am I' and compare the results. It seems easy enough to put ourselves in other people's shoes and easily see there really is a 'we' which kind of underscores the reality of my individuality.  I mean you're fairly certain I'm not a Russian bot right?

Offline MH

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2020, 01:59:37 pm »
But they really sucked at love so.  It's what people do with things like science or love or ball-peen hammers that matters.

Agreed.  Even with good intentions, you can cause harm with good tools.  Mistakes happen.

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If love is a universal language its probably pretty simple and more along the lines of 'I'd love to eat that thing' or 'I'd love it if that thing didn't eat me'.

Or 'I love my mother'.  The weird thing is that the Nazis thought they had love down.  They had love of race down to a science.

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You mentioned your love for the word interregnum. This could be it or it may just be the transition to one. The term is associated with a longer period of time between an old and new order as in the interregnum that followed the collapse of the Roman Empire. OTOH it could also be a quicker switch like the one the Black Death triggered.

It was from this:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz4ohEJx4Xw  A lot of people love this guy, he's a certain vintage of leftist as I understand.

The interregnum was thought to be between the end of the written word and the rebirth of tribalism in the visual world.  But we are now in a new world that combines both written, aural and visual into a plastic and limitless point-to-point system.  And we are actually witnessing the fall of empires, at the rate of one every 15 years or so.

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People are one thing and something certainly matters more than the game when competing for fun. When competition is fun it suggests to me the cultural struggle to do better has been won. But when cultures compete its all fun and games until...well I guess cultures can also fall into the trap of playing the player instead of the ball. Decadence also seems to be something that precedes and attends the undoing of many cultures, they lose resiliency become brittle, it doesn't take much to knock them of their pedestals if they're unprepared and they can shatter into hundreds of pieces.

I believe that there exists a range of balance, within which a culture will reflect, and adjust its ways.  A single viewpoint, such as from an emperor, or a group that holds more power tend to set that balance off.  In balance, competition of ideas will generate a meritocracy. 

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What makes it fake? A feeling you generate or an impression you receive?  Science tells me I am little different from anyone else where it matters but culture says otherwise.  Maybe we could ask a more universal question like 'what am I' and compare the results. It seems easy enough to put ourselves in other people's shoes and easily see there really is a 'we' which kind of underscores the reality of my individuality.  I mean you're fairly certain I'm not a Russian bot right?

Advertising projects false ideas, in the same way Narcissus' mirror worked for him. 

"What am I" is a big question, and people can't even answer it for themselves let alone a group.  "What should I be doing" is actually a better question, and in answering that as individuals and a group we can find out what we are.

I hate to break it to you but... You, my friend, are no Russian bot.

Offline MH

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2021, 08:01:36 am »

Reading up on Scandinavian Socialism, and although it's not a consensus many of those who say it works, so it does so thanks to a cultural cohesion. 

Could Canada improve cultural cohesion, both regionally and nationally ? 

If so - how ? 

Paradoxically, I think the so-called "post national" culture idea is a national culture. 

What features of our Canada could we elevate and use to bind us ?


Offline Nipples Von Graham

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2021, 01:03:14 pm »

Paradoxically, I think the so-called "post national" culture idea is a national culture. 

No it's not.  It's saying "we don't have a national identity of significance, we're multicultural".  The Liberal government doesn't push much of any national cultural or identity, they push multiculturalism and diversity.

If you want people to feel united then nurture a national identity/culture where everyone feels they belong.  People in this country don't know very much about Canada's history, that would be a great start.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2021, 03:47:48 pm »
Reading up on Scandinavian Socialism, and although it's not a consensus many of those who say it works, so it does so thanks to a cultural cohesion. 

Could Canada improve cultural cohesion, both regionally and nationally ? 

If so - how ? 

Paradoxically, I think the so-called "post national" culture idea is a national culture. 

What features of our Canada could we elevate and use to bind us ?

In much of Europe, there is no concept of “Italian Britains” or “Black Britains” or “Canadian Britains”….  People are British when they’re in Britain.  Or, like in your example, Scandinavia.  Not sure why we always reference people as “Chinese-Canadians”,”Indo-Canadians” or whatever ….   Want social cohesion?  Get rid of those monikers.

Want cohesion across provinces?   Scandinavians do identify with a locale, be it where they’re living or where they grew up, but it is nothing like our provincial make-up in Canada.   If you want more cohesion nationally, you’re going to have to strive to make the central government a much more powerful figure in Canadian’s lives. 

The provincial equivalent in Norway doesn’t control the oil resources in that territory of Norway;  it’s a national resource.

 Do we have it wrong here?  I think we probably do.  When it’s easier for a small brewery in Ontario to sell into the USA than it is for them to sell into Quebec, literally across the river from them, then it could be asked what the point of Canada actually is…?
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Offline The Cynic

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2021, 09:32:46 pm »
No it's not.  It's saying "we don't have a national identity of significance, we're multicultural".  The Liberal government doesn't push much of any national cultural or identity, they push multiculturalism and diversity.

Except in Quebec.

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2021, 10:44:13 pm »
In much of Europe, there is no concept of “Italian Britains” or “Black Britains” or “Canadian Britains”….  People are British when they’re in Britain.  Or, like in your example, Scandinavia.  Not sure why we always reference people as “Chinese-Canadians”,”Indo-Canadians” or whatever ….   Want social cohesion?  Get rid of those monikers.

Want cohesion across provinces?   Scandinavians do identify with a locale, be it where they’re living or where they grew up, but it is nothing like our provincial make-up in Canada.   If you want more cohesion nationally, you’re going to have to strive to make the central government a much more powerful figure in Canadian’s lives. 

The provincial equivalent in Norway doesn’t control the oil resources in that territory of Norway;  it’s a national resource.

 Do we have it wrong here?  I think we probably do.  When it’s easier for a small brewery in Ontario to sell into the USA than it is for them to sell into Quebec, literally across the river from them, then it could be asked what the point of Canada actually is…?

Why IS distribution of alcohol so difficult province to province?  A friend of mine and her business partner are going through the same thing right now in BC, having to expand to the US because they can't branch out in Canada. 

I also agree that our decentralized system is a breeding ground for bitterness and resentment.  The pipeline issue between BC and Alberta for example would not have happened if 'Alberta's' oil was Canada's.  Both provinces ended up feeling victimized and in their own way both were victims. 

I guess it all comes down to Quebec.  In order to live up to the initial agreements of the union (or present day appeasement depending on whom you ask), we have to keep things decentralized and give provinces autonomy. 

So in a way that's our raison d'etre as a nation.  Being stuck in a loveless marriage of convenience where all the children and grandchildren now have to suffer from the dysfunction of the two founding grandparents.
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2021, 10:52:12 pm »
People in this country don't know very much about Canada's history, that would be a great start.

Americans don't know much about their history or even the state next door, yet there is a sense of unity (even though regional animosity exists).  We watch American movies and read American books. Canadian cinema is non-existent and Canadian TV has a small audience. 

Most musicians, actors or comedians that make it big end up in the US because we lack in the arts and don't see ourselves reflected the way British and French do.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2021, 10:54:02 pm by BC_cheque »

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Culture Culture
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2021, 11:09:34 pm »
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Why IS distribution of alcohol so difficult province to province?  A friend of mine and her business partner are going through the same thing right now in BC, having to expand to the US because they can't branch out in Canada. 

Provincial protectionism.   It’s really that simple.

It’s completely shortsighted and hurts Canadian consumers, but protects some businesses that would otherwise have more competition.  It hurts innovative businesses that want to expand across provincial borders.  America doesn’t have economic barriers between states like Canada has between provinces.