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Author Topic: Cultural Appropriation Culture  (Read 755 times)

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2018, 09:19:59 am »
Quote from: cybercoma on May 06, 2018, 09:01:04 am
Who's defining racism and disrespect? If you say the people being disrespected, then I'll have to remember that next time someone makes a cartoon of the prophet in Islam.

Well that's hard to determine i guess.  People have the legal right to print cartoons of mohammed out of spite, but that doesn't mean it's the right or polite thing to do.  A girl wearing a chinese dress and then her and her friends posing with stereotypical asian hand gestures seems racist.  They have the legal right to do it i suppose but will face the social consequences.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2018, 09:51:43 am »
Everyone pretends they are Irish on March 17th. Slap on a kilt and sporran and get weepy on Robby Burns day. No biggy even if you are a Cambodian. No cultural appropriation BS even though it is blatant.
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Offline MH

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Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2018, 10:02:29 am »
Quote from: cybercoma on May 06, 2018, 09:01:58 am
How can culture be personal? The definition of culture involves groups of people interacting with each other and sharing common understandings, values, norms, and beliefs.

If you say it's "your" culture then you are defining it.  For yourself.  I wouldn't allow you to define "Canadian" for me any more than you would allow me to define it for you.  It's ethereal and so you can only define your perspective on it.

Just because one black person says they're ok with the "n-word" doesn't mean I can use it with impunity.
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Offline MH

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Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2018, 10:03:19 am »
Quote from: wilber on May 06, 2018, 09:51:43 am
Everyone pretends they are Irish on March 17th. Slap on a kilt and sporran and get weepy on Robby Burns day. No biggy even if you are a Cambodian. No cultural appropriation BS even though it is blatant.

Right... and so here we are.
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Offline MH

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Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2018, 10:26:25 am »
Maybe we're closer to a definition of what it is than we think.

If "most" of that culture (inside the national/regional culture where the event occurred) are actually offended can we both:

1) Admit that it is, in fact, offensive and
2) Dismiss individual complaintants who pretend to speak for the whole ?
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2018, 11:05:05 am »
Quote from: SirJohn on May 06, 2018, 09:10:56 am
The definitive dismissal of the silliness of the whole thing.

But I strongly doubt even most Chinese in China are aware of that background these days. Sometimes a dress is just a damn dress. There are no co-opting implications.

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2018/05/04/dont-get-your-cheongsam-in-a-knot.html

I guess the obvious rebuttal is that a white woman doesn't get to decide on behalf of others what they should or shouldn't find offensive.


 -k
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Offline MH

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Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2018, 11:19:00 am »
Quote from: kimmy on May 06, 2018, 11:05:05 am
I guess the obvious rebuttal is that a white woman doesn't get to decide on behalf of others what they should or shouldn't find offensive.


 -k

?  Am I missing something ?

Did a white woman called Chinese culture HER culture ?

Boing...
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2018, 11:24:52 am »
Quote from: MH on May 06, 2018, 10:26:25 am
Maybe we're closer to a definition of what it is than we think.

If "most" of that culture (inside the national/regional culture where the event occurred) are actually offended can we both:

1) Admit that it is, in fact, offensive and
2) Dismiss individual complaintants who pretend to speak for the whole ?

So... is there an example of a case where a significantly large portion of a culture have agreed that cultural appropriation is actually offensive?  The closest thing I can think of is sports teams referencing aboriginal groups.  Washington Redskins. Cleveland Indians.  Edmonton Eskimos.

Perhaps some of the Halloween costumes are patently offensive.  Referencing well-known and insulting stereotypes.  But I think the key words there are "costume" and "insulting" and "stereotypes".

 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2018, 11:26:14 am »
Quote from: MH on May 06, 2018, 11:19:00 am
?  Am I missing something ?

Did a white woman called Chinese culture HER culture ?

Boing...

SJ's article telling Chinese people not to be offended by the dress dust-up was written by Rosie DiMaio.

 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2018, 11:59:40 am »
Following the sports team thought for a moment...   how do the following names and logos make you feel?


Washington Redskins



Florida Seminoles



Edmonton Eskimos


Cleveland Indians


Notre Dame Fighting Irish



With the Eskimos, even though they have long removed anything aboriginal-related from the branding, the name itself is considered an ethnic slur against Inuit, akin to referring to Jews as Kikes or Italians as Wops. I think obviously there'd be a lot of discomfort if somebody named their pro sports team "the Brooklyn Wops".   The Redskins is similar.  Not sure how I feel about the logo... it's obviously a depiction of a historical Native American, but I'm not sure it's an offensive depiction.  The Cleveland Indians logo is pretty clearly offensive.

All of the above have caused some amount of controversy, and I can understand the reasons why.  With the Florida Seminoles, I find neither the name nor the logo offensive. I've never actually heard of any controversy involving the Florida Seminoles, and I included it here because I thought maybe it might be an example of something where the line is harder to describe.  And the same with the Fighting Irish logo... is it actually offensive to Irish people?


 -k
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Offline wilber

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Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2018, 12:09:33 pm »
Quote from: MH on May 06, 2018, 10:26:25 am
Maybe we're closer to a definition of what it is than we think.

If "most" of that culture (inside the national/regional culture where the event occurred) are actually offended can we both:

1) Admit that it is, in fact, offensive and
2) Dismiss individual complaintants who pretend to speak for the whole ?

So if no one complains it isn't cultural appropriation regardless of what someone does?

I find the the label ridiculous. Imitating someone is not stealing their culture, regardless of how bad that imitation is. I can understand why some things are considered offensive and sometimes they are intended to be, but there is no such thing as intellectual property when it comes to culture.

Whatever happened to the expression, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Most people imitate the things they enjoy, even when they do it badly.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2018, 12:12:56 pm »
Kimmy, you forgot the Minnesota Vikings. Why aren't Scandinavians up in arms?

I get the problem FN have with many of the team logos and some but not all of the names.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 12:14:46 pm by wilber »
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Offline MH

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Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2018, 03:30:13 pm »
Quote from: kimmy on May 06, 2018, 11:24:52 am
So... is there an example of a case where a significantly large portion of a culture have agreed that cultural appropriation is actually offensive?  The closest thing I can think of is sports teams referencing aboriginal groups.  Washington Redskins. Cleveland Indians.  Edmonton Eskimos.

The NAACP (I think) forced the TV version of Amos and Andy off the air... in the 1950s (!).  But those are good examples.

Quote
Perhaps some of the Halloween costumes are patently offensive.  Referencing well-known and insulting stereotypes.  But I think the key words there are "costume" and "insulting" and "stereotypes".

 -k

You know.  The industries themselves are pretty good at watching for this stuff, as when they fail it can destroy your brand.
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Offline MH

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Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2018, 03:33:51 pm »
Quote from: wilber on May 06, 2018, 12:09:33 pm
So if no one complains it isn't cultural appropriation regardless of what someone does?

That's what I am wondering, yes.

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I find the the label ridiculous. Imitating someone is not stealing their culture, regardless of how bad that imitation is. I can understand why some things are considered offensive and sometimes they are intended to be, but there is no such thing as intellectual property when it comes to culture.
Nonetheless, it is a thing.

Quote
Whatever happened to the expression, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Most people imitate the things they enjoy, even when they do it badly.
The Police sued Puff Daddy for ripping off 'Every Breath You Take' and won.  The Gospels all copied each other. 
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2018, 03:34:47 pm »
Quote from: MH on May 06, 2018, 10:02:29 am
If you say it's "your" culture then you are defining it.  For yourself.  I wouldn't allow you to define "Canadian" for me any more than you would allow me to define it for you.  It's ethereal and so you can only define your perspective on it.

Just because one black person says they're ok with the "n-word" doesn't mean I can use it with impunity.
Cukture by definition is shared. We cannot have personal definitions of culture because that goes against the meaning of the word. I don’t understand at all how we could all have a different definition of something that literally means shared views.
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