Author Topic: Could Covid be Offering a Restart for Democracies?  (Read 650 times)

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guest78

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Re: Could Covid be Offering a Restart for Democracies?
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2020, 04:31:41 pm »
member Shady, pictures of long lines (of vehicles, of people) were from so-called 'red-states'... of prominent note, Texas & Florida. I thought those states were open for bidness - no shutdowns per the Rethuglican mantra! Amirite?
But I thought they were open and irresponsible?  What gives.  Regardless, there are plenty of food lines etc in California, etc.

Offline Bubbermiley

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Re: Could Covid be Offering a Restart for Democracies?
« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2020, 07:33:02 am »
The reason there are food lines, etc is because the government has shut down their businesses.  How can you blame that on capitalism?  That's Orwellian.
It shows that capitalism can't withstand a pandemic very well. It leads to low-wage workers like yourself going without income for the safety and security of the nation, That's clearly not sustainable. You've said it yourself. The only remedy you have under capitalism is to ignore it and let the virus spread.

guest78

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Re: Could Covid be Offering a Restart for Democracies?
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2020, 12:31:05 pm »
It shows that capitalism can't withstand a pandemic very well. It leads to low-wage workers like yourself going without income for the safety and security of the nation, That's clearly not sustainable. You've said it yourself. The only remedy you have under capitalism is to ignore it and let the virus spread.
Complete nonsense.  A government can provide income to people out of work without abandoning capitalism.  It's a capitalist economy that produces the revenue necessary for all the goodies we love, education, health care, etc.  Capitalism is essentially just recognizing private property rights, and the voluntary purchasing of goods and services.  If you're against that, you're against freedom.  Which doesn't really surprise me.  I get that freedom gets in the way of your pandemic mitigation response.  But you're advocation for totalitarianism is ridiculous. 

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Could Covid be Offering a Restart for Democracies?
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2020, 10:48:31 pm »
It shows that capitalism can't withstand a pandemic very well. It leads to low-wage workers like yourself going without income for the safety and security of the nation, That's clearly not sustainable. You've said it yourself. The only remedy you have under capitalism is to ignore it and let the virus spread.

Under any economic system during a pandemic many workers would stay at home and the economy would slow down substantially.  Under most any economic system worth a darn the government would be supporting these workers with income similar to now.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline segnosaur

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Re: Could Covid be Offering a Restart for Democracies?
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2020, 11:15:32 pm »
It shows that capitalism can't withstand a pandemic very well. It leads to low-wage workers like yourself going without income for the safety and security of the nation, That's clearly not sustainable. You've said it yourself. The only remedy you have under capitalism is to ignore it and let the virus spread.
First of all, I don't think any economic system will function very well during a pandemic.

Secondly, what exactly are you defining as 'capitalism'? After all, at this point in time pretty much every society has a mixed economic system... Even the "Greed is good" United States has at least some government-funded social programs and other public works (Medicare, welfare, the CDC, etc.) as well as financial and environmental regulations, and even the most left-wing socialist economy (e.g. Sweden) still has free markets. There may be a few command-economies (such as North Korea, or Cuba), but the standard of living in such places is generally low.

Lastly, while it is true that people may have economic problems in a pandemic, there is no guarantee things would be better in a command economy, and in fact may be worse. The current crop of Covid-19 vaccines have been developed in part by corporations, in part because they may see potential profit. There is no guarantee that a command economy would have had the same success. (Remember, there have been many human disasters that have taken place under command economies... famines in the Ukraine under Stalin, China's Great Leap Forward, that saw many people die.)

In my opinion, the best option is an economy that is largely free market (with appropriate regulations), that uses the wealth generated by the free markets (through taxation and self interest) to provide necessities for those who would otherwise be unable to afford it. And that's what pretty much all the western countries are doing. Both Canada and the United States have used tax revenue and/or borrowing to deal with the impact of Covid-19, but much of the wealth now used to deal with Covid was generated thanks to free markets.

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Could Covid be Offering a Restart for Democracies?
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2020, 01:40:29 am »
Secondly, what exactly are you defining as 'capitalism'? After all, at this point in time pretty much every society has a mixed economic system... Even the "Greed is good" United States has at least some government-funded social programs and other public works (Medicare, welfare, the CDC, etc.) as well as financial and environmental regulations, and even the most left-wing socialist economy (e.g. Sweden) still has free markets. There may be a few command-economies (such as North Korea, or Cuba), but the standard of living in such places is generally low.

US GDP contracted close to 33% in Q2, Sweden was less than 9%.

Bubbermiley isn't saying anything radical.  Economists have been saying the same thing throughout this incredible year.

guest78

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Re: Could Covid be Offering a Restart for Democracies?
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2020, 06:54:35 am »
US GDP contracted close to 33% in Q2, Sweden was less than 9%.

Bubbermiley isn't saying anything radical.  Economists have been saying the same thing throughout this incredible year.
Thatís because Sweden never shut down and let its capitalist economy continue to operate. Try again.

Offline wilber

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Re: Could Covid be Offering a Restart for Democracies?
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2020, 09:01:23 am »
Thatís because Sweden never shut down and let its capitalist economy continue to operate. Try again.

Sweden is hitting new highs in infections. The PM says their approach was a mistake. Even their King who remains non political just came out and said they had failed. Their economy shrank more than the other Scandinavian countries in the second quarter. Countries that had a small fraction of Swedenís Covid deaths.
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guest78

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Re: Could Covid be Offering a Restart for Democracies?
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2020, 10:14:42 am »
Sweden is hitting new highs in infections. The PM says their approach was a mistake. Even their King who remains non political just came out and said they had failed. Their economy shrank more than the other Scandinavian countries in the second quarter. Countries that had a small fraction of Swedenís Covid deaths.
But it wasnít a mistake.  Shutting down in the spring or summer wouldnít have prevented the fall surge.  Many counties are seeing new highs.  Germany has new daily covid death highs.  You canít compare Sweden to other Scandinavian counties.  They have twice the population and a much larger economy.  Regardless, what I said is true.  They didnít see the same kind of economic damage as the United States because they didnít shut down their economy.  That was my point.

Offline wilber

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Re: Could Covid be Offering a Restart for Democracies?
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2020, 11:10:17 am »
But it wasnít a mistake.  Shutting down in the spring or summer wouldnít have prevented the fall surge.  Many counties are seeing new highs.  Germany has new daily covid death highs.  You canít compare Sweden to other Scandinavian counties.  They have twice the population and a much larger economy.  Regardless, what I said is true.  They didnít see the same kind of economic damage as the United States because they didnít shut down their economy.  That was my point.


They basically had the same recommendations as other countries, they just didnít make them mandatory, if you canít compare them to other Scandinavian countries, why are you comparing them to anyone else? We have over three times Swedenís population.

Sweden has four times as many Covid deaths as Norway, Denmark and Finland combined.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2020, 11:15:50 am by wilber »
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guest78

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Re: Could Covid be Offering a Restart for Democracies?
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2020, 11:43:45 am »

They basically had the same recommendations as other countries, they just didnít make them mandatory, if you canít compare them to other Scandinavian countries, why are you comparing them to anyone else? We have over three times Swedenís population.

Sweden has four times as many Covid deaths as Norway, Denmark and Finland combined.
My comment was related to the post that US GDP contracted by 32% while Sweden's only contracted by 9%.  I simply stated that Sweden didn't shut down their economy the way the United States did, hence, the lack of economic contraction.  That's the only point I was making.  Regardless, most countries are seeing huge spikes in cases and deaths now.  What Sweden did back in the spring has little relevance to what has happened the last month or so. 
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Could Covid be Offering a Restart for Democracies?
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2020, 11:59:41 am »
It shows that capitalism can't withstand a pandemic very well. It leads to low-wage workers like yourself going without income for the safety and security of the nation, That's clearly not sustainable. You've said it yourself. The only remedy you have under capitalism is to ignore it and let the virus spread.

The reason that our government has been able to borrow so much money is that lenders have high confidence in our free market economy and its ability to repay those debts.

The pandemic has highlighted many questions about economy, of course. Which businesses and industries might vanish in the future, what is essential and what is not, what do people who "aren't essential" do to earn a living, and so on.  Another question that has been raised is how has the stock market become so disconnected from the economy at large?  People are out of work, small businesses are closing left and right, whole industries are struggling or floundering, the government is subsidizing individuals to a degree that hasn't been seen in generations (if ever) and during all of this the stock market is higher than ever before.  How is that possible? What is going on?  We saw this after the 2007 crash as well.  For several years afterward people were struggling to get back into the labor market even as stock markets recovered quickly.  But now during this pandemic the disconnect between the stock market and the economy is wider than ever.  I don't get it.

 -k
Masked for your safety.

Offline the_squid

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Re: Could Covid be Offering a Restart for Democracies?
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2020, 12:13:18 pm »
Quote
I don't get it.

Generally, large companies arenít hurting during the pandemic.

Offline wilber

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Re: Could Covid be Offering a Restart for Democracies?
« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2020, 12:19:39 pm »
My comment was related to the post that US GDP contracted by 32% while Sweden's only contracted by 9%.  I simply stated that Sweden didn't shut down their economy the way the United States did, hence, the lack of economic contraction.  That's the only point I was making.  Regardless, most countries are seeing huge spikes in cases and deaths now.  What Sweden did back in the spring has little relevance to what has happened the last month or so.

Why are you comparing Sweden with the US which has over 30 times the population when you won't compare it to the other Scandinavian countries which each have just over half Sweden"s population?

What Sweden did last spring is exactly what you are comparing them to.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2020, 12:32:30 pm by wilber »
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Offline the_squid

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Re: Could Covid be Offering a Restart for Democracies?
« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2020, 12:24:01 pm »
Why are you comparing Sweden with the US which has over 30 times wth population when you won't compare it to the other Scandinavian countries which each have just over half Swedens population?

What Sweden did last spring is exactly what you are comparing them to.

Time for Shady to run away from this thread for a while....   then heíll pop back in here to make some inane, ridiculous comment without acknowledging you asked him anything.