Author Topic: Conspiracy Culture  (Read 2376 times)

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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #210 on: March 10, 2021, 02:54:29 pm »
So you think there's a problem because of some anecdotes, and this is enough for Seinfeld to change his hiring practices?  5 of the 10 highest paid comedians are POC or women, including the top paid, and there's also Dave Chappelle who is up there with Kevin Hart in popularity but not on the list.  How do we as a society address a problem if we can't define it or know how big of a problem it is?  Surely we can figure something out. 

How do we know when we, like Seinfeld, should hire more women/POC?  And how do we know when we've hired enough women/POC?  Is it based on gut feelings?  Should numbers be equal (50/50 men vs women) or match what the census makeup of the general population is?  Should we just ballpark it and hire a bunch until it kinda looks good?

How do we know the lack of female comedians is due to sexism?  Maybe more men are good at making people laugh than women?  Funny women seem to do well, like Melissa McCarthy, Kristen Wiig, Amy Schumer etc.  To what extent is the lack of women an industry problem or a "less woman are funny" problem?  To what extent is this Seinfeld's problem, or his responsibility to help fix?

You seem obsessed with quotas for some reason, which is not something anyone is asking for. To address the issue, you have to acknowledge that it exists and trust the people who say its an issue aren't making **** up. From that point on it's about changing attitudes of people like Jerry Seinfeld who have a lot of power and influence.

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So black people are better at basketball than other races?

No, there are more people who happen to be good at basketball who are Black.

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And women are smarter and/or harder working than men?

More women graduate university because more women go into university to get into fields like education and healthcare that are women-dominated (itself something of aa sexist relic). STEM fields are still male dominated. Also more men skip higher education and go into the workforce. There's plenty of other reasons, but no one is reducing it to

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How is there an objective standard in these 2 examples and there isn't for people who are good at making other people laugh

Because humour, unlike hitting a jumper or getting good grades, is entirely subjective.

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How are there more university grads who are women, and more female medical doctors graduating than men, but STEM is sexist because of lack of women?  Is the teaching professional or medical doctor profession sexist because of lower male graduates? Are anecdotes and number disparities sufficient to show sexism/racism?

What else would you look for?

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #211 on: March 10, 2021, 06:33:37 pm »
You seem obsessed with quotas for some reason, which is not something anyone is asking for. To address the issue, you have to acknowledge that it exists and trust the people who say its an issue aren't making **** up. From that point on it's about changing attitudes of people like Jerry Seinfeld who have a lot of power and influence.

So you're not asking for quotas and believe people should be hired on merit alone?

The interviewer was basically criticizing Seinfeld for not having more female comedians on his show.  Is it Seinfeld's problem that there are more successful male comedians in the industry who are funny, in his assessment, than women?  Does that make him sexist?  Why should we trust some interviewers' insinuation that there's some kind of sexist imbalance on the show, or in the industry?  Why should we trust anyone making claims if they're unable to back up their claims with evidence?  As I've shown with basketball players and teachers, a disparity in gender or race isn't sufficient on its own to show there's racial or gender bias occurring in hiring, and yet people do it constantly.

We should be looking at social problems like this like social scientists, based on evidence, not making claims pulled out of our butts and then claiming some employer is sexist, racist, or whatever simply because of anecdotes and gender/race disparities, and then pressuring them to change hiring practices because things *appear* to some people to be unfair when there's little to no evidence that it actually is or not.

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No, there are more people who happen to be good at basketball who are Black.

I agree.  Is it possible that there are more men who are good comedians than women?  If one disagrees with that statement, i think they'd need evidence it's wrong.

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More women graduate university because more women go into university to get into fields like education and healthcare that are women-dominated (itself something of aa sexist relic). STEM fields are still male dominated. Also more men skip higher education and go into the workforce. There's plenty of other reasons, but no one is reducing it to

If more men graduated university than women for these exact same reasons you propose, some people would claim it is due to sexism, just as they do in STEM fields.  And they would bring forward this claim without any real evidence.  It sounds like people are pulling claims out of their rear end.  Nobody is going to say that more women graduate due to sexism.  Why?  Because there's no evidence to back up that claim.  Is it possible in our society we're sometimes reaching conclusion like this before actually investigating whether a claim is true or not? I find that likely.

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What else would you look for?

I'm not sure.  Something that can be verified?  One study was conducted where the exact same resumes were sent to many employers and they just changed the names on them.  The resumes with POC sounding names got more callbacks for interviews than the white sounding names.  This is an effective study that shows racial bias was a factor in hiring because all variables were controlled for except for the ethnicity of the candidates names.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #212 on: March 11, 2021, 09:38:18 am »
So you're not asking for quotas and believe people should be hired on merit alone?

Not really because the concept of merit is itself flawed. It assumes everyone starts at the same place and the playing field is level for everyone. That's not the case.

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The interviewer was basically criticizing Seinfeld for not having more female comedians on his show.  Is it Seinfeld's problem that there are more successful male comedians in the industry who are funny, in his assessment, than women?  Does that make him sexist?  Why should we trust some interviewers' insinuation that there's some kind of sexist imbalance on the show, or in the industry?  Why should we trust anyone making claims if they're unable to back up their claims with evidence?

Because the quantitative evidence you're asking for is extremely difficult to come by, but that in itself doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist. We do have an awful lot of anecdotal evidence though and that's telling.

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As I've shown with basketball players and teachers, a disparity in gender or race isn't sufficient on its own to show there's racial or gender bias occurring in hiring, and yet people do it constantly.

And i've shown why those are bad analogies.

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We should be looking at social problems like this like social scientists, based on evidence, not making claims pulled out of our butts and then claiming some employer is sexist, racist, or whatever simply because of anecdotes and gender/race disparities, and then pressuring them to change hiring practices because things *appear* to some people to be unfair when there's little to no evidence that it actually is or not.

See above.

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I agree.  Is it possible that there are more men who are good comedians than women?  If one disagrees with that statement, i think they'd need evidence it's wrong.

No, you need to provide evidence it's right.

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If more men graduated university than women for these exact same reasons you propose, some people would claim it is due to sexism, just as they do in STEM fields.  And they would bring forward this claim without any real evidence.  It sounds like people are pulling claims out of their rear end.  Nobody is going to say that more women graduate due to sexism.  Why?  Because there's no evidence to back up that claim.  Is it possible in our society we're sometimes reaching conclusion like this before actually investigating whether a claim is true or not? I find that likely.

Asking for "evidence" over and over again without providing any sense of what kind of evidence would be acceptable isn't really showing a serious commitment to understanding the problem, it's just JAQing off.

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I'm not sure.  Something that can be verified?  One study was conducted where the exact same resumes were sent to many employers and they just changed the names on them.  The resumes with POC sounding names got more callbacks for interviews than the white sounding names.  This is an effective study that shows racial bias was a factor in hiring because all variables were controlled for except for the ethnicity of the candidates names.

Not every social phenomenon can be reproduced in a lab, but yes they can try. There was a study that had men and women write cartoon captions and subjects rate them. In the anonymous sample, there was no difference, but in the sample where the names of the authours were included, the men were rated higher. Things like that help, but overall, I think it's a challenge to show where stereotypes and implicit bias end and genuine differences in ability begin.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 09:44:17 am by Black Dog »

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #213 on: March 11, 2021, 03:46:37 pm »
Not really because the concept of merit is itself flawed. It assumes everyone starts at the same place and the playing field is level for everyone. That's not the case.

Therefore you believe that quotas are a solution to this problem, correct?  So maybe i'm not the one obsessed with quotas.

Merit means the best person for the job gets the job regardless of what they look like (race, gender, eye colour, whatever).  That's what POC and women have been asking for since the beginning.  It's the only way to choose someone for a job without discriminating on the basis of race or sex.

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Because the quantitative evidence you're asking for is extremely difficult to come by, but that in itself doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist. We do have an awful lot of anecdotal evidence though and that's telling.

Why is it difficult?  Conduct a study like the ones mentioned.  You want to discriminate against caucasians and men and give those jobs to women or POC.  I don't really have a problem with this if there's discrimination going on against POC/women in order to negate that discrimination, but if you're going to discriminate against people based on race/sex and take their jobs away to give to others you have an obligation to at least know what you're talking about and have some kind of evidence that a problem exists due to racism/sexism.  Yelling "racism and sexism" isn't good enough, it's terrible social science, and so are basing conclusions on anecdotes.  You either believe in justice, or you believe in justice only for certain people based on their race or gender, which is what racists and sexists do.

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And i've shown why those are bad analogies.

No you haven't, you simply dodged the question.

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No, you need to provide evidence it's right.

No.  Again, if you want to discriminate against people on the basis of race and sex, which is kind of a serious thing to do, the onus is on you to provide evidence that it's justified, not pull things from your behind.

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Asking for "evidence" over and over again without providing any sense of what kind of evidence would be acceptable isn't really showing a serious commitment to understanding the problem, it's just JAQing off.

If you want to know what acceptable evidence means you can take a social science class on research methods.  Correlation doesn't equal causation, for instance.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #214 on: March 12, 2021, 09:31:24 am »
Therefore you believe that quotas are a solution to this problem, correct?  So maybe i'm not the one obsessed with quotas.

No.

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Merit means the best person for the job gets the job regardless of what they look like (race, gender, eye colour, whatever).  That's what POC and women have been asking for since the beginning.  It's the only way to choose someone for a job without discriminating on the basis of race or sex.

You obviously don't understand the criticism of the concept and I bet you never will. The notion that being the best person for the job has ever actually been the thing that gets people jobs is farcical.

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Why is it difficult?  Conduct a study like the ones mentioned.  You want to discriminate against caucasians and men and give those jobs to women or POC.  I don't really have a problem with this if there's discrimination going on against POC/women in order to negate that discrimination, but if you're going to discriminate against people based on race/sex and take their jobs away to give to others you have an obligation to at least know what you're talking about and have some kind of evidence that a problem exists due to racism/sexism.  Yelling "racism and sexism" isn't good enough, it's terrible social science, and so are basing conclusions on anecdotes.  You either believe in justice, or you believe in justice only for certain people based on their race or gender, which is what racists and sexists do.

Why are you whinging about discrimination against caucasians and men when literally no one has proposed that?

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No you haven't, you simply dodged the question.

Wrong again. I answered, and you ignored the answer.

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No.  Again, if you want to discriminate against people on the basis of race and sex, which is kind of a serious thing to do, the onus is on you to provide evidence that it's justified, not pull things from your behind.

Like you're doing here when you claim I want to discriminate. OK.

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If you want to know what acceptable evidence means you can take a social science class on research methods. Correlation doesn't equal causation, for instance.

Speaking of dodging the question, look at you go.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 02:29:59 pm by Black Dog »
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #215 on: March 12, 2021, 04:41:03 pm »
You obviously don't understand the criticism of the concept and I bet you never will. The notion that being the best person for the job has ever actually been the thing that gets people jobs is farcical.

Merit is likely the case in most hirings, but not in all cases.  I think most would agree that hiring based on merit is the ideal.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #216 on: March 13, 2021, 06:55:04 pm »
Merit is likely the case in most hirings, but not in all cases.  I think most would agree that hiring based on merit is the ideal.

Ideal, but impossible.
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Offline MH

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Offline eyeball

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #218 on: May 13, 2021, 12:44:21 pm »
Astral Projection and the CIA ?

Whack.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/v7e4g3/found-page-25-of-the-cias-gateway-report-on-astral-projection
Yep, it was a different time back then alright. There were a bunch of Gateway Experience cassettes produced by Robert Munroe (mentioned in the article) in my mom's stuff in a box along with material from something called the The Mind Awareness Institute which she subscribed to. Mom was a little off the wall that way but interestingly enough I also found a government report on investigations into such groups including her's. I suspect most governments were compelled to investigate these groups and their claims for the potential they had to lead people astray - presumably also into other dimensions if the CIA's research is anything to go by.

I even found results of testing my mom had done on my brother's for their psi abilities. I guess I'd made my escape to the west coast by then.
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #219 on: May 14, 2021, 06:34:16 am »
I have no interest in this thread until Charles Anthony shows up.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #220 on: May 25, 2021, 09:14:39 pm »
I have no interest in this thread until Charles Anthony shows up.

Back during my brief stint as an MLW moderator, there was a thread where somebody posted links to satellite infrared temperature readings in reference to global warming, and Chuck was like "This stuff is make-believe and only exists in movies. Why are we letting people post links to science fiction to support their arguments?"

I think that was the first time I truly understood that we were dealing with a complete total mentally deranged crazy-person.

 -k
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #221 on: May 25, 2021, 09:47:57 pm »
Back during my brief stint as an MLW moderator, there was a thread where somebody posted links to satellite infrared temperature readings in reference to global warming, and Chuck was like "This stuff is make-believe and only exists in movies. Why are we letting people post links to science fiction to support their arguments?"

I think that was the first time I truly understood that we were dealing with a complete total mentally deranged crazy-person.

 -k

LOL, you can buy an infrared temperature gun at Canadian Tire or basically anywhere:  https://www.homedepot.com/b/Electrical-Electrical-Tools-Electrical-Testers/Infrared-Thermometer/N-5yc1vZboffZ1z1180y

I've used one and I still have no idea how it's able to work, it's basically magic, so I kinda get Charles point haha.  I couldn't stop pointing the laser on things to measure its temp.  I would point the laser on the wall and get a reading, then point it on a piece of metal nearby and get a colder reading, it was awesome.

P.S. Somebody buy me one.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #222 on: May 25, 2021, 10:09:17 pm »
The dude literally believes that satellites are fake and not real.

 -k
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Online Mr. Perfect

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #223 on: May 26, 2021, 01:53:32 am »
The dude literally believes that satellites are fake and not real.

 -k

Graham?  Not surprised.

Offline MH

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Re: Conspiracy Culture
« Reply #224 on: May 26, 2021, 08:01:53 am »

I think that was the first time I truly understood that we were dealing with a complete total mentally deranged crazy-person.


Smart guy though, and super nice.  Let's all celebrate him as well....  ;D
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